Indiscernible sequences in countable complete theoryfinding n-typesProof of Lowenheim-Skolem theoremClassification of modelsModels of $T_forallexists$ embed in a existentially closed extension model of $T$.The unique model of cardinal $kappa$ of a $kappa$-categorical countable theory is saturated.In a stable theory a Indiscernible sequences are Indiscernible setsDescribing ring properties in terms of infinitary sentences (Hodges, Model Theory, 2.2-9)Are there any non-trivially 'potentially categorical' first order theories?Many set theory and model theory questions.How can a formula have nontrivial alternation number?

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Indiscernible sequences in countable complete theory


finding n-typesProof of Lowenheim-Skolem theoremClassification of modelsModels of $T_forallexists$ embed in a existentially closed extension model of $T$.The unique model of cardinal $kappa$ of a $kappa$-categorical countable theory is saturated.In a stable theory a Indiscernible sequences are Indiscernible setsDescribing ring properties in terms of infinitary sentences (Hodges, Model Theory, 2.2-9)Are there any non-trivially 'potentially categorical' first order theories?Many set theory and model theory questions.How can a formula have nontrivial alternation number?













1












$begingroup$


Given complete $T$ in countable language, prove for any $kappa >omega$, $exists mathcalMmodels T$ such that $forall AsubseteqmathcalM, mathcalM$ realizes at most $|A|+omega$ types n $S^mathcalM_n(A)$.



Proof goes like this(in Lecture note I'm using). Take $mathcalM$ indiscernible hull of indiscernible $I$ cardinality of $kappa$. Here $mathcalM$ is model of skolemization of $T$ in corresponding language $mathcalL^*$. Given $AsubseteqmathcalM$, $ain A$ can be written as $a=t^mathcalM(c_a)$ where $c_a in I$. take $J=cup_ain A c_a$. then we can show |types over $A$| $leq$|types over J| in $mathcalM$. So it is enough to show latter one$leq |A|+omega$. Now define equivalence relation as follows:



$forall_n<omegaforallbarc,bardin[I]^n barc simbardLeftrightarrow forall_1leq kleq nforall ein J, (c_k<eleftrightarrow d_k<e) wedge (c_k=eleftrightarrow d_k=e)$



where $barc=(c_1,...,c_n),bard=(d_1,...,d_n)$ increasing sequence in $[I]^n$. I'm proving for any term $t(barx)inmathcalL^*$ having n-variables, $barcsimbard$ implies $tp_mathcalM(t^M(barc)/J)=tp_mathcalM(t^M(bard)/J)$. In my note, it is written that "$tp_mathcalM(barc/J)=tp_mathcalM(bard/J)$ implies equality above". but I could prove the former one but I don't know how to get the latter one from first one..










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$
















    1












    $begingroup$


    Given complete $T$ in countable language, prove for any $kappa >omega$, $exists mathcalMmodels T$ such that $forall AsubseteqmathcalM, mathcalM$ realizes at most $|A|+omega$ types n $S^mathcalM_n(A)$.



    Proof goes like this(in Lecture note I'm using). Take $mathcalM$ indiscernible hull of indiscernible $I$ cardinality of $kappa$. Here $mathcalM$ is model of skolemization of $T$ in corresponding language $mathcalL^*$. Given $AsubseteqmathcalM$, $ain A$ can be written as $a=t^mathcalM(c_a)$ where $c_a in I$. take $J=cup_ain A c_a$. then we can show |types over $A$| $leq$|types over J| in $mathcalM$. So it is enough to show latter one$leq |A|+omega$. Now define equivalence relation as follows:



    $forall_n<omegaforallbarc,bardin[I]^n barc simbardLeftrightarrow forall_1leq kleq nforall ein J, (c_k<eleftrightarrow d_k<e) wedge (c_k=eleftrightarrow d_k=e)$



    where $barc=(c_1,...,c_n),bard=(d_1,...,d_n)$ increasing sequence in $[I]^n$. I'm proving for any term $t(barx)inmathcalL^*$ having n-variables, $barcsimbard$ implies $tp_mathcalM(t^M(barc)/J)=tp_mathcalM(t^M(bard)/J)$. In my note, it is written that "$tp_mathcalM(barc/J)=tp_mathcalM(bard/J)$ implies equality above". but I could prove the former one but I don't know how to get the latter one from first one..










    share|cite|improve this question











    $endgroup$














      1












      1








      1





      $begingroup$


      Given complete $T$ in countable language, prove for any $kappa >omega$, $exists mathcalMmodels T$ such that $forall AsubseteqmathcalM, mathcalM$ realizes at most $|A|+omega$ types n $S^mathcalM_n(A)$.



      Proof goes like this(in Lecture note I'm using). Take $mathcalM$ indiscernible hull of indiscernible $I$ cardinality of $kappa$. Here $mathcalM$ is model of skolemization of $T$ in corresponding language $mathcalL^*$. Given $AsubseteqmathcalM$, $ain A$ can be written as $a=t^mathcalM(c_a)$ where $c_a in I$. take $J=cup_ain A c_a$. then we can show |types over $A$| $leq$|types over J| in $mathcalM$. So it is enough to show latter one$leq |A|+omega$. Now define equivalence relation as follows:



      $forall_n<omegaforallbarc,bardin[I]^n barc simbardLeftrightarrow forall_1leq kleq nforall ein J, (c_k<eleftrightarrow d_k<e) wedge (c_k=eleftrightarrow d_k=e)$



      where $barc=(c_1,...,c_n),bard=(d_1,...,d_n)$ increasing sequence in $[I]^n$. I'm proving for any term $t(barx)inmathcalL^*$ having n-variables, $barcsimbard$ implies $tp_mathcalM(t^M(barc)/J)=tp_mathcalM(t^M(bard)/J)$. In my note, it is written that "$tp_mathcalM(barc/J)=tp_mathcalM(bard/J)$ implies equality above". but I could prove the former one but I don't know how to get the latter one from first one..










      share|cite|improve this question











      $endgroup$




      Given complete $T$ in countable language, prove for any $kappa >omega$, $exists mathcalMmodels T$ such that $forall AsubseteqmathcalM, mathcalM$ realizes at most $|A|+omega$ types n $S^mathcalM_n(A)$.



      Proof goes like this(in Lecture note I'm using). Take $mathcalM$ indiscernible hull of indiscernible $I$ cardinality of $kappa$. Here $mathcalM$ is model of skolemization of $T$ in corresponding language $mathcalL^*$. Given $AsubseteqmathcalM$, $ain A$ can be written as $a=t^mathcalM(c_a)$ where $c_a in I$. take $J=cup_ain A c_a$. then we can show |types over $A$| $leq$|types over J| in $mathcalM$. So it is enough to show latter one$leq |A|+omega$. Now define equivalence relation as follows:



      $forall_n<omegaforallbarc,bardin[I]^n barc simbardLeftrightarrow forall_1leq kleq nforall ein J, (c_k<eleftrightarrow d_k<e) wedge (c_k=eleftrightarrow d_k=e)$



      where $barc=(c_1,...,c_n),bard=(d_1,...,d_n)$ increasing sequence in $[I]^n$. I'm proving for any term $t(barx)inmathcalL^*$ having n-variables, $barcsimbard$ implies $tp_mathcalM(t^M(barc)/J)=tp_mathcalM(t^M(bard)/J)$. In my note, it is written that "$tp_mathcalM(barc/J)=tp_mathcalM(bard/J)$ implies equality above". but I could prove the former one but I don't know how to get the latter one from first one..







      model-theory






      share|cite|improve this question















      share|cite|improve this question













      share|cite|improve this question




      share|cite|improve this question








      edited Mar 21 at 8:00







      fbg

















      asked Mar 21 at 7:50









      fbgfbg

      473311




      473311




















          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

          votes


















          1












          $begingroup$

          This is an almost immediate consequence of indiscernibility. The intuitive meaning of $overlinecsimoverlined$ is that $overlinec$ and $overlined$ "come in the same order" in $I$ relative to the set $J$. In particular, if $overlinee$ is a finite tuple from $J$, then $overlinecoverlinee$ and $overlinedoverlinee$ are both finite tuples from $I$ which "come in the same order", so they satisfy the same formulas by indiscernibility.



          More precisely:



          Suppose $varphi(x,overlinee)in texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlinec)/J)$ and $overlinecsim overlined$. Consider the formula $psi(overlinez,overlinew)$ given by $varphi(t(overlinez),overlinew)$.



          We have $mathcalMmodels varphi(t^M(overlinec),overlinee)$, so $mathcalMmodels psi(overlinec,overlinee)$. And by indiscernibility, since $overlinecsimoverlined$, we also have $mathcalMmodels psi(overlined,overlinee)$. So $mathcalMmodels varphi(t(overlined),overlinee)$, and $varphi(x,overlinee)in texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlined)/J)$. Thus $texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlinec)/J) = texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlined)/J)$.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            I don't know why $mathcalMmodels varphi(t^mathcalM(barc),e_1,...,e_k)$ and $barcsimbard$ implies $mathcalMmodels varphi(t^mathcalM(bard),e_1,...,e_k)$. it seems that $barcsimbard$ implies $bart(barc)simbart(bard)$ but I don't know how to prove this. I want to know how $sim$ affects the argument
            $endgroup$
            – fbg
            Mar 22 at 7:34











          • $begingroup$
            Do you know what "indiscernible" means? @fbg
            $endgroup$
            – Alex Kruckman
            Mar 22 at 13:06











          • $begingroup$
            @fbg I've added a bit more detail to my answer. Let me know if that helps.
            $endgroup$
            – Alex Kruckman
            Mar 22 at 13:58










          • $begingroup$
            Also, your assertion $overlinecsim overlined$ implies $t(overlinec)sim t(overlined)$ doesn't make any sense, since $sim$ is only defined on tuples from $I$, and $t(overlinec)$ might not be an element of $I$.
            $endgroup$
            – Alex Kruckman
            Mar 23 at 5:37










          • $begingroup$
            I couldn't thought about letting $varphi(t^mathcalM(barz),barw)$ as $psi(barz,barw)$. Now I see how it works. Thank you
            $endgroup$
            – fbg
            Mar 25 at 4:17












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          1 Answer
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          active

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          1 Answer
          1






          active

          oldest

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          active

          oldest

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          active

          oldest

          votes









          1












          $begingroup$

          This is an almost immediate consequence of indiscernibility. The intuitive meaning of $overlinecsimoverlined$ is that $overlinec$ and $overlined$ "come in the same order" in $I$ relative to the set $J$. In particular, if $overlinee$ is a finite tuple from $J$, then $overlinecoverlinee$ and $overlinedoverlinee$ are both finite tuples from $I$ which "come in the same order", so they satisfy the same formulas by indiscernibility.



          More precisely:



          Suppose $varphi(x,overlinee)in texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlinec)/J)$ and $overlinecsim overlined$. Consider the formula $psi(overlinez,overlinew)$ given by $varphi(t(overlinez),overlinew)$.



          We have $mathcalMmodels varphi(t^M(overlinec),overlinee)$, so $mathcalMmodels psi(overlinec,overlinee)$. And by indiscernibility, since $overlinecsimoverlined$, we also have $mathcalMmodels psi(overlined,overlinee)$. So $mathcalMmodels varphi(t(overlined),overlinee)$, and $varphi(x,overlinee)in texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlined)/J)$. Thus $texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlinec)/J) = texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlined)/J)$.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            I don't know why $mathcalMmodels varphi(t^mathcalM(barc),e_1,...,e_k)$ and $barcsimbard$ implies $mathcalMmodels varphi(t^mathcalM(bard),e_1,...,e_k)$. it seems that $barcsimbard$ implies $bart(barc)simbart(bard)$ but I don't know how to prove this. I want to know how $sim$ affects the argument
            $endgroup$
            – fbg
            Mar 22 at 7:34











          • $begingroup$
            Do you know what "indiscernible" means? @fbg
            $endgroup$
            – Alex Kruckman
            Mar 22 at 13:06











          • $begingroup$
            @fbg I've added a bit more detail to my answer. Let me know if that helps.
            $endgroup$
            – Alex Kruckman
            Mar 22 at 13:58










          • $begingroup$
            Also, your assertion $overlinecsim overlined$ implies $t(overlinec)sim t(overlined)$ doesn't make any sense, since $sim$ is only defined on tuples from $I$, and $t(overlinec)$ might not be an element of $I$.
            $endgroup$
            – Alex Kruckman
            Mar 23 at 5:37










          • $begingroup$
            I couldn't thought about letting $varphi(t^mathcalM(barz),barw)$ as $psi(barz,barw)$. Now I see how it works. Thank you
            $endgroup$
            – fbg
            Mar 25 at 4:17
















          1












          $begingroup$

          This is an almost immediate consequence of indiscernibility. The intuitive meaning of $overlinecsimoverlined$ is that $overlinec$ and $overlined$ "come in the same order" in $I$ relative to the set $J$. In particular, if $overlinee$ is a finite tuple from $J$, then $overlinecoverlinee$ and $overlinedoverlinee$ are both finite tuples from $I$ which "come in the same order", so they satisfy the same formulas by indiscernibility.



          More precisely:



          Suppose $varphi(x,overlinee)in texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlinec)/J)$ and $overlinecsim overlined$. Consider the formula $psi(overlinez,overlinew)$ given by $varphi(t(overlinez),overlinew)$.



          We have $mathcalMmodels varphi(t^M(overlinec),overlinee)$, so $mathcalMmodels psi(overlinec,overlinee)$. And by indiscernibility, since $overlinecsimoverlined$, we also have $mathcalMmodels psi(overlined,overlinee)$. So $mathcalMmodels varphi(t(overlined),overlinee)$, and $varphi(x,overlinee)in texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlined)/J)$. Thus $texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlinec)/J) = texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlined)/J)$.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$












          • $begingroup$
            I don't know why $mathcalMmodels varphi(t^mathcalM(barc),e_1,...,e_k)$ and $barcsimbard$ implies $mathcalMmodels varphi(t^mathcalM(bard),e_1,...,e_k)$. it seems that $barcsimbard$ implies $bart(barc)simbart(bard)$ but I don't know how to prove this. I want to know how $sim$ affects the argument
            $endgroup$
            – fbg
            Mar 22 at 7:34











          • $begingroup$
            Do you know what "indiscernible" means? @fbg
            $endgroup$
            – Alex Kruckman
            Mar 22 at 13:06











          • $begingroup$
            @fbg I've added a bit more detail to my answer. Let me know if that helps.
            $endgroup$
            – Alex Kruckman
            Mar 22 at 13:58










          • $begingroup$
            Also, your assertion $overlinecsim overlined$ implies $t(overlinec)sim t(overlined)$ doesn't make any sense, since $sim$ is only defined on tuples from $I$, and $t(overlinec)$ might not be an element of $I$.
            $endgroup$
            – Alex Kruckman
            Mar 23 at 5:37










          • $begingroup$
            I couldn't thought about letting $varphi(t^mathcalM(barz),barw)$ as $psi(barz,barw)$. Now I see how it works. Thank you
            $endgroup$
            – fbg
            Mar 25 at 4:17














          1












          1








          1





          $begingroup$

          This is an almost immediate consequence of indiscernibility. The intuitive meaning of $overlinecsimoverlined$ is that $overlinec$ and $overlined$ "come in the same order" in $I$ relative to the set $J$. In particular, if $overlinee$ is a finite tuple from $J$, then $overlinecoverlinee$ and $overlinedoverlinee$ are both finite tuples from $I$ which "come in the same order", so they satisfy the same formulas by indiscernibility.



          More precisely:



          Suppose $varphi(x,overlinee)in texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlinec)/J)$ and $overlinecsim overlined$. Consider the formula $psi(overlinez,overlinew)$ given by $varphi(t(overlinez),overlinew)$.



          We have $mathcalMmodels varphi(t^M(overlinec),overlinee)$, so $mathcalMmodels psi(overlinec,overlinee)$. And by indiscernibility, since $overlinecsimoverlined$, we also have $mathcalMmodels psi(overlined,overlinee)$. So $mathcalMmodels varphi(t(overlined),overlinee)$, and $varphi(x,overlinee)in texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlined)/J)$. Thus $texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlinec)/J) = texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlined)/J)$.






          share|cite|improve this answer











          $endgroup$



          This is an almost immediate consequence of indiscernibility. The intuitive meaning of $overlinecsimoverlined$ is that $overlinec$ and $overlined$ "come in the same order" in $I$ relative to the set $J$. In particular, if $overlinee$ is a finite tuple from $J$, then $overlinecoverlinee$ and $overlinedoverlinee$ are both finite tuples from $I$ which "come in the same order", so they satisfy the same formulas by indiscernibility.



          More precisely:



          Suppose $varphi(x,overlinee)in texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlinec)/J)$ and $overlinecsim overlined$. Consider the formula $psi(overlinez,overlinew)$ given by $varphi(t(overlinez),overlinew)$.



          We have $mathcalMmodels varphi(t^M(overlinec),overlinee)$, so $mathcalMmodels psi(overlinec,overlinee)$. And by indiscernibility, since $overlinecsimoverlined$, we also have $mathcalMmodels psi(overlined,overlinee)$. So $mathcalMmodels varphi(t(overlined),overlinee)$, and $varphi(x,overlinee)in texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlined)/J)$. Thus $texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlinec)/J) = texttp_mathcalM(t^M(overlined)/J)$.







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited Mar 22 at 13:57

























          answered Mar 22 at 6:51









          Alex KruckmanAlex Kruckman

          28.4k32758




          28.4k32758











          • $begingroup$
            I don't know why $mathcalMmodels varphi(t^mathcalM(barc),e_1,...,e_k)$ and $barcsimbard$ implies $mathcalMmodels varphi(t^mathcalM(bard),e_1,...,e_k)$. it seems that $barcsimbard$ implies $bart(barc)simbart(bard)$ but I don't know how to prove this. I want to know how $sim$ affects the argument
            $endgroup$
            – fbg
            Mar 22 at 7:34











          • $begingroup$
            Do you know what "indiscernible" means? @fbg
            $endgroup$
            – Alex Kruckman
            Mar 22 at 13:06











          • $begingroup$
            @fbg I've added a bit more detail to my answer. Let me know if that helps.
            $endgroup$
            – Alex Kruckman
            Mar 22 at 13:58










          • $begingroup$
            Also, your assertion $overlinecsim overlined$ implies $t(overlinec)sim t(overlined)$ doesn't make any sense, since $sim$ is only defined on tuples from $I$, and $t(overlinec)$ might not be an element of $I$.
            $endgroup$
            – Alex Kruckman
            Mar 23 at 5:37










          • $begingroup$
            I couldn't thought about letting $varphi(t^mathcalM(barz),barw)$ as $psi(barz,barw)$. Now I see how it works. Thank you
            $endgroup$
            – fbg
            Mar 25 at 4:17

















          • $begingroup$
            I don't know why $mathcalMmodels varphi(t^mathcalM(barc),e_1,...,e_k)$ and $barcsimbard$ implies $mathcalMmodels varphi(t^mathcalM(bard),e_1,...,e_k)$. it seems that $barcsimbard$ implies $bart(barc)simbart(bard)$ but I don't know how to prove this. I want to know how $sim$ affects the argument
            $endgroup$
            – fbg
            Mar 22 at 7:34











          • $begingroup$
            Do you know what "indiscernible" means? @fbg
            $endgroup$
            – Alex Kruckman
            Mar 22 at 13:06











          • $begingroup$
            @fbg I've added a bit more detail to my answer. Let me know if that helps.
            $endgroup$
            – Alex Kruckman
            Mar 22 at 13:58










          • $begingroup$
            Also, your assertion $overlinecsim overlined$ implies $t(overlinec)sim t(overlined)$ doesn't make any sense, since $sim$ is only defined on tuples from $I$, and $t(overlinec)$ might not be an element of $I$.
            $endgroup$
            – Alex Kruckman
            Mar 23 at 5:37










          • $begingroup$
            I couldn't thought about letting $varphi(t^mathcalM(barz),barw)$ as $psi(barz,barw)$. Now I see how it works. Thank you
            $endgroup$
            – fbg
            Mar 25 at 4:17
















          $begingroup$
          I don't know why $mathcalMmodels varphi(t^mathcalM(barc),e_1,...,e_k)$ and $barcsimbard$ implies $mathcalMmodels varphi(t^mathcalM(bard),e_1,...,e_k)$. it seems that $barcsimbard$ implies $bart(barc)simbart(bard)$ but I don't know how to prove this. I want to know how $sim$ affects the argument
          $endgroup$
          – fbg
          Mar 22 at 7:34





          $begingroup$
          I don't know why $mathcalMmodels varphi(t^mathcalM(barc),e_1,...,e_k)$ and $barcsimbard$ implies $mathcalMmodels varphi(t^mathcalM(bard),e_1,...,e_k)$. it seems that $barcsimbard$ implies $bart(barc)simbart(bard)$ but I don't know how to prove this. I want to know how $sim$ affects the argument
          $endgroup$
          – fbg
          Mar 22 at 7:34













          $begingroup$
          Do you know what "indiscernible" means? @fbg
          $endgroup$
          – Alex Kruckman
          Mar 22 at 13:06





          $begingroup$
          Do you know what "indiscernible" means? @fbg
          $endgroup$
          – Alex Kruckman
          Mar 22 at 13:06













          $begingroup$
          @fbg I've added a bit more detail to my answer. Let me know if that helps.
          $endgroup$
          – Alex Kruckman
          Mar 22 at 13:58




          $begingroup$
          @fbg I've added a bit more detail to my answer. Let me know if that helps.
          $endgroup$
          – Alex Kruckman
          Mar 22 at 13:58












          $begingroup$
          Also, your assertion $overlinecsim overlined$ implies $t(overlinec)sim t(overlined)$ doesn't make any sense, since $sim$ is only defined on tuples from $I$, and $t(overlinec)$ might not be an element of $I$.
          $endgroup$
          – Alex Kruckman
          Mar 23 at 5:37




          $begingroup$
          Also, your assertion $overlinecsim overlined$ implies $t(overlinec)sim t(overlined)$ doesn't make any sense, since $sim$ is only defined on tuples from $I$, and $t(overlinec)$ might not be an element of $I$.
          $endgroup$
          – Alex Kruckman
          Mar 23 at 5:37












          $begingroup$
          I couldn't thought about letting $varphi(t^mathcalM(barz),barw)$ as $psi(barz,barw)$. Now I see how it works. Thank you
          $endgroup$
          – fbg
          Mar 25 at 4:17





          $begingroup$
          I couldn't thought about letting $varphi(t^mathcalM(barz),barw)$ as $psi(barz,barw)$. Now I see how it works. Thank you
          $endgroup$
          – fbg
          Mar 25 at 4:17


















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