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Axiom of Choice iff Every set has a choice function


Understanding a proof of an implication of the axiom of choiceAxiom of choice and the number of choice functionsWhy isn't this a valid argument to the “proof” of the Axiom of Countable Choice?Does the existence of products in the category of sets imply the Axiom of Choice?Axiom of Choice (Naive Set Theory, Halmos)Is there a “strong” version of the axiom of choice?Defining relations without axiom of choiceEvery set of pairwise disjoint sets has a choice function implies ACAxiom of binary choice vs Axiom of finite choiceSet Theory: Equivalency of Axiom of Choice and Choice Function













0












$begingroup$


I'd like to know if my proof is correct or incorrect in the following.



Given definition of Axiom of Choice (AoC): The direct product of a family of non-empty sets indexed by a non-empty set is non-empty.



Show that the Axiom of Choice is equivalent to the statement that every set has a choice function.



(Choice Function => AoC):



Suppose every set has a choice function.



Let S be a set, and fix a natural number n.



Let $$
I = 1,2,....,n
$$
and let $mathbf A$ be a family of non-empty subsets of S sets indexed over I.



$$
mathbf A = A_1, A_2, ... , A_n
$$



The task is to show that the direct product over sets in $mathbfA$ is non-empty. This will be shown if an element of this set can be produced.



Let
$$
D = A_1 times A_2 times ... times A_n
$$



By supposition, this set has a choice function $f$ defined over non-empty subsets $X$ of $D$ with the following:



$f: X to D$ such that $f(X)∈X$ for all subsets $X$.



So, $f(X) ∈ X$ $Rightarrow$ $f(X) ∈ D$.



So, $D$ is non-empty.



(Show AoC => Choice Function):



Suppose the Axiom of Choice, let S be a set, and fix a natural number n.



Let
$$
I = 1,2,....,n
$$
and let



$$
mathbfA = A_1,A_2,....,A_n
$$



be a family of non-empty subsets of S indexed over I.



Let
$$
D = A_1 times A_2 times ... times A_n
$$



By the Axiom of choice, $D$ is non-empty.



Let $y ∈ D$ and define a function $f: D to D$ by $f(x) = y$ for all elements $x ∈ D$.



(So, every element of D is mapped to this fixed element $y$.)



So, $f(x)∈D$ for all $x∈ D$.



In other words, $f$ defines a choice function on $D$.



So, assuming the Axiom of Choice implies that $S$ has a choice function defined on its non-empty subsets.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Your choice function -> AoC argument looks wrong to me. 'By supposition, this set has a choice function defined over non-empty subsets', but you haven't shown that there are any non-empty subsets of D! That is, after all, the thing you're trying to prove.
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Jul 19 '17 at 0:18






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Also, you index over 'finite' products $A_1ldots A_n$, but that doesn't take AC; the non-emptyness of a finite product can be proven in ZF. Choice is only relevant for infinite products.
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Jul 19 '17 at 0:20










  • $begingroup$
    For some basic information about writing math at this site see e.g. here, here, here and here.
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Sleziak
    Sep 4 '17 at 6:04










  • $begingroup$
    The set-theoretic def'n of $prod_jin JA_j$ is the set of functions from $J$ into $cup A_j:jin J$ that satisfy $forall jin J;(f(j)in A_j). $
    $endgroup$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Sep 4 '17 at 8:28















0












$begingroup$


I'd like to know if my proof is correct or incorrect in the following.



Given definition of Axiom of Choice (AoC): The direct product of a family of non-empty sets indexed by a non-empty set is non-empty.



Show that the Axiom of Choice is equivalent to the statement that every set has a choice function.



(Choice Function => AoC):



Suppose every set has a choice function.



Let S be a set, and fix a natural number n.



Let $$
I = 1,2,....,n
$$
and let $mathbf A$ be a family of non-empty subsets of S sets indexed over I.



$$
mathbf A = A_1, A_2, ... , A_n
$$



The task is to show that the direct product over sets in $mathbfA$ is non-empty. This will be shown if an element of this set can be produced.



Let
$$
D = A_1 times A_2 times ... times A_n
$$



By supposition, this set has a choice function $f$ defined over non-empty subsets $X$ of $D$ with the following:



$f: X to D$ such that $f(X)∈X$ for all subsets $X$.



So, $f(X) ∈ X$ $Rightarrow$ $f(X) ∈ D$.



So, $D$ is non-empty.



(Show AoC => Choice Function):



Suppose the Axiom of Choice, let S be a set, and fix a natural number n.



Let
$$
I = 1,2,....,n
$$
and let



$$
mathbfA = A_1,A_2,....,A_n
$$



be a family of non-empty subsets of S indexed over I.



Let
$$
D = A_1 times A_2 times ... times A_n
$$



By the Axiom of choice, $D$ is non-empty.



Let $y ∈ D$ and define a function $f: D to D$ by $f(x) = y$ for all elements $x ∈ D$.



(So, every element of D is mapped to this fixed element $y$.)



So, $f(x)∈D$ for all $x∈ D$.



In other words, $f$ defines a choice function on $D$.



So, assuming the Axiom of Choice implies that $S$ has a choice function defined on its non-empty subsets.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Your choice function -> AoC argument looks wrong to me. 'By supposition, this set has a choice function defined over non-empty subsets', but you haven't shown that there are any non-empty subsets of D! That is, after all, the thing you're trying to prove.
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Jul 19 '17 at 0:18






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Also, you index over 'finite' products $A_1ldots A_n$, but that doesn't take AC; the non-emptyness of a finite product can be proven in ZF. Choice is only relevant for infinite products.
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Jul 19 '17 at 0:20










  • $begingroup$
    For some basic information about writing math at this site see e.g. here, here, here and here.
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Sleziak
    Sep 4 '17 at 6:04










  • $begingroup$
    The set-theoretic def'n of $prod_jin JA_j$ is the set of functions from $J$ into $cup A_j:jin J$ that satisfy $forall jin J;(f(j)in A_j). $
    $endgroup$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Sep 4 '17 at 8:28













0












0








0


2



$begingroup$


I'd like to know if my proof is correct or incorrect in the following.



Given definition of Axiom of Choice (AoC): The direct product of a family of non-empty sets indexed by a non-empty set is non-empty.



Show that the Axiom of Choice is equivalent to the statement that every set has a choice function.



(Choice Function => AoC):



Suppose every set has a choice function.



Let S be a set, and fix a natural number n.



Let $$
I = 1,2,....,n
$$
and let $mathbf A$ be a family of non-empty subsets of S sets indexed over I.



$$
mathbf A = A_1, A_2, ... , A_n
$$



The task is to show that the direct product over sets in $mathbfA$ is non-empty. This will be shown if an element of this set can be produced.



Let
$$
D = A_1 times A_2 times ... times A_n
$$



By supposition, this set has a choice function $f$ defined over non-empty subsets $X$ of $D$ with the following:



$f: X to D$ such that $f(X)∈X$ for all subsets $X$.



So, $f(X) ∈ X$ $Rightarrow$ $f(X) ∈ D$.



So, $D$ is non-empty.



(Show AoC => Choice Function):



Suppose the Axiom of Choice, let S be a set, and fix a natural number n.



Let
$$
I = 1,2,....,n
$$
and let



$$
mathbfA = A_1,A_2,....,A_n
$$



be a family of non-empty subsets of S indexed over I.



Let
$$
D = A_1 times A_2 times ... times A_n
$$



By the Axiom of choice, $D$ is non-empty.



Let $y ∈ D$ and define a function $f: D to D$ by $f(x) = y$ for all elements $x ∈ D$.



(So, every element of D is mapped to this fixed element $y$.)



So, $f(x)∈D$ for all $x∈ D$.



In other words, $f$ defines a choice function on $D$.



So, assuming the Axiom of Choice implies that $S$ has a choice function defined on its non-empty subsets.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




I'd like to know if my proof is correct or incorrect in the following.



Given definition of Axiom of Choice (AoC): The direct product of a family of non-empty sets indexed by a non-empty set is non-empty.



Show that the Axiom of Choice is equivalent to the statement that every set has a choice function.



(Choice Function => AoC):



Suppose every set has a choice function.



Let S be a set, and fix a natural number n.



Let $$
I = 1,2,....,n
$$
and let $mathbf A$ be a family of non-empty subsets of S sets indexed over I.



$$
mathbf A = A_1, A_2, ... , A_n
$$



The task is to show that the direct product over sets in $mathbfA$ is non-empty. This will be shown if an element of this set can be produced.



Let
$$
D = A_1 times A_2 times ... times A_n
$$



By supposition, this set has a choice function $f$ defined over non-empty subsets $X$ of $D$ with the following:



$f: X to D$ such that $f(X)∈X$ for all subsets $X$.



So, $f(X) ∈ X$ $Rightarrow$ $f(X) ∈ D$.



So, $D$ is non-empty.



(Show AoC => Choice Function):



Suppose the Axiom of Choice, let S be a set, and fix a natural number n.



Let
$$
I = 1,2,....,n
$$
and let



$$
mathbfA = A_1,A_2,....,A_n
$$



be a family of non-empty subsets of S indexed over I.



Let
$$
D = A_1 times A_2 times ... times A_n
$$



By the Axiom of choice, $D$ is non-empty.



Let $y ∈ D$ and define a function $f: D to D$ by $f(x) = y$ for all elements $x ∈ D$.



(So, every element of D is mapped to this fixed element $y$.)



So, $f(x)∈D$ for all $x∈ D$.



In other words, $f$ defines a choice function on $D$.



So, assuming the Axiom of Choice implies that $S$ has a choice function defined on its non-empty subsets.







set-theory axiom-of-choice






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Sep 4 '17 at 14:03









Andrés E. Caicedo

65.8k8160252




65.8k8160252










asked Jul 18 '17 at 23:50









user2192320user2192320

595




595







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Your choice function -> AoC argument looks wrong to me. 'By supposition, this set has a choice function defined over non-empty subsets', but you haven't shown that there are any non-empty subsets of D! That is, after all, the thing you're trying to prove.
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Jul 19 '17 at 0:18






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Also, you index over 'finite' products $A_1ldots A_n$, but that doesn't take AC; the non-emptyness of a finite product can be proven in ZF. Choice is only relevant for infinite products.
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Jul 19 '17 at 0:20










  • $begingroup$
    For some basic information about writing math at this site see e.g. here, here, here and here.
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Sleziak
    Sep 4 '17 at 6:04










  • $begingroup$
    The set-theoretic def'n of $prod_jin JA_j$ is the set of functions from $J$ into $cup A_j:jin J$ that satisfy $forall jin J;(f(j)in A_j). $
    $endgroup$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Sep 4 '17 at 8:28












  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Your choice function -> AoC argument looks wrong to me. 'By supposition, this set has a choice function defined over non-empty subsets', but you haven't shown that there are any non-empty subsets of D! That is, after all, the thing you're trying to prove.
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Jul 19 '17 at 0:18






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Also, you index over 'finite' products $A_1ldots A_n$, but that doesn't take AC; the non-emptyness of a finite product can be proven in ZF. Choice is only relevant for infinite products.
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Jul 19 '17 at 0:20










  • $begingroup$
    For some basic information about writing math at this site see e.g. here, here, here and here.
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Sleziak
    Sep 4 '17 at 6:04










  • $begingroup$
    The set-theoretic def'n of $prod_jin JA_j$ is the set of functions from $J$ into $cup A_j:jin J$ that satisfy $forall jin J;(f(j)in A_j). $
    $endgroup$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Sep 4 '17 at 8:28







1




1




$begingroup$
Your choice function -> AoC argument looks wrong to me. 'By supposition, this set has a choice function defined over non-empty subsets', but you haven't shown that there are any non-empty subsets of D! That is, after all, the thing you're trying to prove.
$endgroup$
– Steven Stadnicki
Jul 19 '17 at 0:18




$begingroup$
Your choice function -> AoC argument looks wrong to me. 'By supposition, this set has a choice function defined over non-empty subsets', but you haven't shown that there are any non-empty subsets of D! That is, after all, the thing you're trying to prove.
$endgroup$
– Steven Stadnicki
Jul 19 '17 at 0:18




2




2




$begingroup$
Also, you index over 'finite' products $A_1ldots A_n$, but that doesn't take AC; the non-emptyness of a finite product can be proven in ZF. Choice is only relevant for infinite products.
$endgroup$
– Steven Stadnicki
Jul 19 '17 at 0:20




$begingroup$
Also, you index over 'finite' products $A_1ldots A_n$, but that doesn't take AC; the non-emptyness of a finite product can be proven in ZF. Choice is only relevant for infinite products.
$endgroup$
– Steven Stadnicki
Jul 19 '17 at 0:20












$begingroup$
For some basic information about writing math at this site see e.g. here, here, here and here.
$endgroup$
– Martin Sleziak
Sep 4 '17 at 6:04




$begingroup$
For some basic information about writing math at this site see e.g. here, here, here and here.
$endgroup$
– Martin Sleziak
Sep 4 '17 at 6:04












$begingroup$
The set-theoretic def'n of $prod_jin JA_j$ is the set of functions from $J$ into $cup A_j:jin J$ that satisfy $forall jin J;(f(j)in A_j). $
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
Sep 4 '17 at 8:28




$begingroup$
The set-theoretic def'n of $prod_jin JA_j$ is the set of functions from $J$ into $cup A_j:jin J$ that satisfy $forall jin J;(f(j)in A_j). $
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
Sep 4 '17 at 8:28










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















2












$begingroup$

You are working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the Choice Function $Rightarrow$ AoC direction you don't know if $D$ is nonempty, that is what you are trying to pare working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the AoC $Rightarrow$ Choce Function direction you need a choice function on $mathcalA,$ not in $D.$ Moreover, I think we need to clarify some definitions.



First one definition



Definition: Let $mathcalA$ be a nonempty collection os sets. A surjective function $f$ from some set $J$ to $mathcalA$ is called an indexing function for $mathcalA.$ $J$ is called the index set. The collection $mathcalA,$ together with $f,$ is called an indexed family of sets.



I'll use your definition of axiom of choice.



Axiom of choice: For any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product
$$ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$$
is not empty. Recall that the cartesian product is the set of all functions
$$ mathbfx:J to bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
such that $mathbfx(alpha) in A_alpha$ for all $alpha in J.$



Now,



Existence of a choice function: Given a collection $mathcalA$ of nonempty sets, there exists a function
$$ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $c(A)$ is an element of $A: c(A)in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$



Axiom of choice $Rightarrow$ Existence of choice function.



We are assuming that for any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product $ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$ is not empty. Let $mathcalA$ be a collection of nonempty sets. We have to prove that there exists a function $ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ We first index $mathcalA$: let $J=mathcalA$ and $f:mathcalA to mathcalA$ given by $f(A)=A.$ Then $A_A in mathcalA$ is an indexed family of sets, so we can consider its cartesian product $prod_A in mathcalAA.$ By hypothesis, this product is nonempty, so there exists a function
$$ mathbfx: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $mathbfx(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Then $c=mathbfx$ is the function we were looking for.



Existence of choice function $Rightarrow$ Axiom of choice



Now we are assuming that the existence of choice function, and let $A_alpha _alpha in J$ be an indexed family of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0.$ This means that there is a nonempty collection of sets $mathcalA$ and there is an indexing (i.e. surjective) function $f:J to mathcalA$ such that $f(alpha)=A_alpha in mathcalA$ for each $alpha in J.$ By the existence of choice function, there is a function $c:mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Thus
the function
$$ mathbfx:= c circ f : J to mathcalA = bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
satisfies $mathbfx(alpha)=c(f(alpha))=c(A_alpha) in A_alpha$ for each $alpha in J,$ so the product $prod_alpha in JA_alpha$ is nonempty.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for the feedback; I appreciate it! Btw, this is just for my own interest; not for a class or anything...
    $endgroup$
    – user2192320
    Jul 19 '17 at 14:13










  • $begingroup$
    A member of $P=prod_ain AA_a$ is a choice-function for $A_a:ain A$ by the def'n of $P$ and the def'n of a choice-function. So the proposition is essentially a tautology.
    $endgroup$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Jul 19 '17 at 16:35










  • $begingroup$
    Your answer is clear, full of relevant definitions, and concise!
    $endgroup$
    – Le Anh Dung
    Feb 23 '18 at 7:42











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1 Answer
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1 Answer
1






active

oldest

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active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









2












$begingroup$

You are working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the Choice Function $Rightarrow$ AoC direction you don't know if $D$ is nonempty, that is what you are trying to pare working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the AoC $Rightarrow$ Choce Function direction you need a choice function on $mathcalA,$ not in $D.$ Moreover, I think we need to clarify some definitions.



First one definition



Definition: Let $mathcalA$ be a nonempty collection os sets. A surjective function $f$ from some set $J$ to $mathcalA$ is called an indexing function for $mathcalA.$ $J$ is called the index set. The collection $mathcalA,$ together with $f,$ is called an indexed family of sets.



I'll use your definition of axiom of choice.



Axiom of choice: For any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product
$$ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$$
is not empty. Recall that the cartesian product is the set of all functions
$$ mathbfx:J to bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
such that $mathbfx(alpha) in A_alpha$ for all $alpha in J.$



Now,



Existence of a choice function: Given a collection $mathcalA$ of nonempty sets, there exists a function
$$ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $c(A)$ is an element of $A: c(A)in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$



Axiom of choice $Rightarrow$ Existence of choice function.



We are assuming that for any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product $ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$ is not empty. Let $mathcalA$ be a collection of nonempty sets. We have to prove that there exists a function $ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ We first index $mathcalA$: let $J=mathcalA$ and $f:mathcalA to mathcalA$ given by $f(A)=A.$ Then $A_A in mathcalA$ is an indexed family of sets, so we can consider its cartesian product $prod_A in mathcalAA.$ By hypothesis, this product is nonempty, so there exists a function
$$ mathbfx: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $mathbfx(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Then $c=mathbfx$ is the function we were looking for.



Existence of choice function $Rightarrow$ Axiom of choice



Now we are assuming that the existence of choice function, and let $A_alpha _alpha in J$ be an indexed family of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0.$ This means that there is a nonempty collection of sets $mathcalA$ and there is an indexing (i.e. surjective) function $f:J to mathcalA$ such that $f(alpha)=A_alpha in mathcalA$ for each $alpha in J.$ By the existence of choice function, there is a function $c:mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Thus
the function
$$ mathbfx:= c circ f : J to mathcalA = bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
satisfies $mathbfx(alpha)=c(f(alpha))=c(A_alpha) in A_alpha$ for each $alpha in J,$ so the product $prod_alpha in JA_alpha$ is nonempty.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for the feedback; I appreciate it! Btw, this is just for my own interest; not for a class or anything...
    $endgroup$
    – user2192320
    Jul 19 '17 at 14:13










  • $begingroup$
    A member of $P=prod_ain AA_a$ is a choice-function for $A_a:ain A$ by the def'n of $P$ and the def'n of a choice-function. So the proposition is essentially a tautology.
    $endgroup$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Jul 19 '17 at 16:35










  • $begingroup$
    Your answer is clear, full of relevant definitions, and concise!
    $endgroup$
    – Le Anh Dung
    Feb 23 '18 at 7:42















2












$begingroup$

You are working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the Choice Function $Rightarrow$ AoC direction you don't know if $D$ is nonempty, that is what you are trying to pare working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the AoC $Rightarrow$ Choce Function direction you need a choice function on $mathcalA,$ not in $D.$ Moreover, I think we need to clarify some definitions.



First one definition



Definition: Let $mathcalA$ be a nonempty collection os sets. A surjective function $f$ from some set $J$ to $mathcalA$ is called an indexing function for $mathcalA.$ $J$ is called the index set. The collection $mathcalA,$ together with $f,$ is called an indexed family of sets.



I'll use your definition of axiom of choice.



Axiom of choice: For any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product
$$ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$$
is not empty. Recall that the cartesian product is the set of all functions
$$ mathbfx:J to bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
such that $mathbfx(alpha) in A_alpha$ for all $alpha in J.$



Now,



Existence of a choice function: Given a collection $mathcalA$ of nonempty sets, there exists a function
$$ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $c(A)$ is an element of $A: c(A)in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$



Axiom of choice $Rightarrow$ Existence of choice function.



We are assuming that for any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product $ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$ is not empty. Let $mathcalA$ be a collection of nonempty sets. We have to prove that there exists a function $ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ We first index $mathcalA$: let $J=mathcalA$ and $f:mathcalA to mathcalA$ given by $f(A)=A.$ Then $A_A in mathcalA$ is an indexed family of sets, so we can consider its cartesian product $prod_A in mathcalAA.$ By hypothesis, this product is nonempty, so there exists a function
$$ mathbfx: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $mathbfx(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Then $c=mathbfx$ is the function we were looking for.



Existence of choice function $Rightarrow$ Axiom of choice



Now we are assuming that the existence of choice function, and let $A_alpha _alpha in J$ be an indexed family of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0.$ This means that there is a nonempty collection of sets $mathcalA$ and there is an indexing (i.e. surjective) function $f:J to mathcalA$ such that $f(alpha)=A_alpha in mathcalA$ for each $alpha in J.$ By the existence of choice function, there is a function $c:mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Thus
the function
$$ mathbfx:= c circ f : J to mathcalA = bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
satisfies $mathbfx(alpha)=c(f(alpha))=c(A_alpha) in A_alpha$ for each $alpha in J,$ so the product $prod_alpha in JA_alpha$ is nonempty.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for the feedback; I appreciate it! Btw, this is just for my own interest; not for a class or anything...
    $endgroup$
    – user2192320
    Jul 19 '17 at 14:13










  • $begingroup$
    A member of $P=prod_ain AA_a$ is a choice-function for $A_a:ain A$ by the def'n of $P$ and the def'n of a choice-function. So the proposition is essentially a tautology.
    $endgroup$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Jul 19 '17 at 16:35










  • $begingroup$
    Your answer is clear, full of relevant definitions, and concise!
    $endgroup$
    – Le Anh Dung
    Feb 23 '18 at 7:42













2












2








2





$begingroup$

You are working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the Choice Function $Rightarrow$ AoC direction you don't know if $D$ is nonempty, that is what you are trying to pare working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the AoC $Rightarrow$ Choce Function direction you need a choice function on $mathcalA,$ not in $D.$ Moreover, I think we need to clarify some definitions.



First one definition



Definition: Let $mathcalA$ be a nonempty collection os sets. A surjective function $f$ from some set $J$ to $mathcalA$ is called an indexing function for $mathcalA.$ $J$ is called the index set. The collection $mathcalA,$ together with $f,$ is called an indexed family of sets.



I'll use your definition of axiom of choice.



Axiom of choice: For any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product
$$ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$$
is not empty. Recall that the cartesian product is the set of all functions
$$ mathbfx:J to bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
such that $mathbfx(alpha) in A_alpha$ for all $alpha in J.$



Now,



Existence of a choice function: Given a collection $mathcalA$ of nonempty sets, there exists a function
$$ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $c(A)$ is an element of $A: c(A)in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$



Axiom of choice $Rightarrow$ Existence of choice function.



We are assuming that for any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product $ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$ is not empty. Let $mathcalA$ be a collection of nonempty sets. We have to prove that there exists a function $ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ We first index $mathcalA$: let $J=mathcalA$ and $f:mathcalA to mathcalA$ given by $f(A)=A.$ Then $A_A in mathcalA$ is an indexed family of sets, so we can consider its cartesian product $prod_A in mathcalAA.$ By hypothesis, this product is nonempty, so there exists a function
$$ mathbfx: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $mathbfx(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Then $c=mathbfx$ is the function we were looking for.



Existence of choice function $Rightarrow$ Axiom of choice



Now we are assuming that the existence of choice function, and let $A_alpha _alpha in J$ be an indexed family of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0.$ This means that there is a nonempty collection of sets $mathcalA$ and there is an indexing (i.e. surjective) function $f:J to mathcalA$ such that $f(alpha)=A_alpha in mathcalA$ for each $alpha in J.$ By the existence of choice function, there is a function $c:mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Thus
the function
$$ mathbfx:= c circ f : J to mathcalA = bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
satisfies $mathbfx(alpha)=c(f(alpha))=c(A_alpha) in A_alpha$ for each $alpha in J,$ so the product $prod_alpha in JA_alpha$ is nonempty.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



You are working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the Choice Function $Rightarrow$ AoC direction you don't know if $D$ is nonempty, that is what you are trying to pare working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the AoC $Rightarrow$ Choce Function direction you need a choice function on $mathcalA,$ not in $D.$ Moreover, I think we need to clarify some definitions.



First one definition



Definition: Let $mathcalA$ be a nonempty collection os sets. A surjective function $f$ from some set $J$ to $mathcalA$ is called an indexing function for $mathcalA.$ $J$ is called the index set. The collection $mathcalA,$ together with $f,$ is called an indexed family of sets.



I'll use your definition of axiom of choice.



Axiom of choice: For any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product
$$ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$$
is not empty. Recall that the cartesian product is the set of all functions
$$ mathbfx:J to bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
such that $mathbfx(alpha) in A_alpha$ for all $alpha in J.$



Now,



Existence of a choice function: Given a collection $mathcalA$ of nonempty sets, there exists a function
$$ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $c(A)$ is an element of $A: c(A)in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$



Axiom of choice $Rightarrow$ Existence of choice function.



We are assuming that for any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product $ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$ is not empty. Let $mathcalA$ be a collection of nonempty sets. We have to prove that there exists a function $ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ We first index $mathcalA$: let $J=mathcalA$ and $f:mathcalA to mathcalA$ given by $f(A)=A.$ Then $A_A in mathcalA$ is an indexed family of sets, so we can consider its cartesian product $prod_A in mathcalAA.$ By hypothesis, this product is nonempty, so there exists a function
$$ mathbfx: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $mathbfx(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Then $c=mathbfx$ is the function we were looking for.



Existence of choice function $Rightarrow$ Axiom of choice



Now we are assuming that the existence of choice function, and let $A_alpha _alpha in J$ be an indexed family of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0.$ This means that there is a nonempty collection of sets $mathcalA$ and there is an indexing (i.e. surjective) function $f:J to mathcalA$ such that $f(alpha)=A_alpha in mathcalA$ for each $alpha in J.$ By the existence of choice function, there is a function $c:mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Thus
the function
$$ mathbfx:= c circ f : J to mathcalA = bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
satisfies $mathbfx(alpha)=c(f(alpha))=c(A_alpha) in A_alpha$ for each $alpha in J,$ so the product $prod_alpha in JA_alpha$ is nonempty.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Mar 21 at 6:39









ZWJ

319




319










answered Jul 19 '17 at 0:18









positrón0802positrón0802

4,513520




4,513520











  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for the feedback; I appreciate it! Btw, this is just for my own interest; not for a class or anything...
    $endgroup$
    – user2192320
    Jul 19 '17 at 14:13










  • $begingroup$
    A member of $P=prod_ain AA_a$ is a choice-function for $A_a:ain A$ by the def'n of $P$ and the def'n of a choice-function. So the proposition is essentially a tautology.
    $endgroup$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Jul 19 '17 at 16:35










  • $begingroup$
    Your answer is clear, full of relevant definitions, and concise!
    $endgroup$
    – Le Anh Dung
    Feb 23 '18 at 7:42
















  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for the feedback; I appreciate it! Btw, this is just for my own interest; not for a class or anything...
    $endgroup$
    – user2192320
    Jul 19 '17 at 14:13










  • $begingroup$
    A member of $P=prod_ain AA_a$ is a choice-function for $A_a:ain A$ by the def'n of $P$ and the def'n of a choice-function. So the proposition is essentially a tautology.
    $endgroup$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Jul 19 '17 at 16:35










  • $begingroup$
    Your answer is clear, full of relevant definitions, and concise!
    $endgroup$
    – Le Anh Dung
    Feb 23 '18 at 7:42















$begingroup$
Thank you for the feedback; I appreciate it! Btw, this is just for my own interest; not for a class or anything...
$endgroup$
– user2192320
Jul 19 '17 at 14:13




$begingroup$
Thank you for the feedback; I appreciate it! Btw, this is just for my own interest; not for a class or anything...
$endgroup$
– user2192320
Jul 19 '17 at 14:13












$begingroup$
A member of $P=prod_ain AA_a$ is a choice-function for $A_a:ain A$ by the def'n of $P$ and the def'n of a choice-function. So the proposition is essentially a tautology.
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
Jul 19 '17 at 16:35




$begingroup$
A member of $P=prod_ain AA_a$ is a choice-function for $A_a:ain A$ by the def'n of $P$ and the def'n of a choice-function. So the proposition is essentially a tautology.
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
Jul 19 '17 at 16:35












$begingroup$
Your answer is clear, full of relevant definitions, and concise!
$endgroup$
– Le Anh Dung
Feb 23 '18 at 7:42




$begingroup$
Your answer is clear, full of relevant definitions, and concise!
$endgroup$
– Le Anh Dung
Feb 23 '18 at 7:42

















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