Axiom of Choice iff Every set has a choice functionUnderstanding a proof of an implication of the axiom of choiceAxiom of choice and the number of choice functionsWhy isn't this a valid argument to the “proof” of the Axiom of Countable Choice?Does the existence of products in the category of sets imply the Axiom of Choice?Axiom of Choice (Naive Set Theory, Halmos)Is there a “strong” version of the axiom of choice?Defining relations without axiom of choiceEvery set of pairwise disjoint sets has a choice function implies ACAxiom of binary choice vs Axiom of finite choiceSet Theory: Equivalency of Axiom of Choice and Choice Function

Am I breaking OOP practice with this architecture?

Would Slavery Reparations be considered Bills of Attainder and hence Illegal?

Why didn't Miles's spider sense work before?

Why was the shrinking from 8″ made only to 5.25″ and not smaller (4″ or less)?

What exploit Are these user agents trying to use?

What does “the session was packed” mean in this context?

GFCI outlets - can they be repaired? Are they really needed at the end of a circuit?

How do I handle a potential work/personal life conflict as the manager of one of my friends?

Why can't we play rap on piano?

Do UK voters know if their MP will be the Speaker of the House?

Is there a hemisphere-neutral way of specifying a season?

Apex Framework / library for consuming REST services

Is there an expression that means doing something right before you will need it rather than doing it in case you might need it?

Can we compute the area of a quadrilateral with one right angle when we only know the lengths of any three sides?

What mechanic is there to disable a threat instead of killing it?

What is the most common color to indicate the input-field is disabled?

How much of data wrangling is a data scientist's job?

How seriously should I take size and weight limits of hand luggage?

Plagiarism or not?

Is it inappropriate for a student to attend their mentor's dissertation defense?

How does a predictive coding aid in lossless compression?

How would I stat a creature to be immune to everything but the Magic Missile spell? (just for fun)

ssTTsSTtRrriinInnnnNNNIiinngg

Why do bosons tend to occupy the same state?



Axiom of Choice iff Every set has a choice function


Understanding a proof of an implication of the axiom of choiceAxiom of choice and the number of choice functionsWhy isn't this a valid argument to the “proof” of the Axiom of Countable Choice?Does the existence of products in the category of sets imply the Axiom of Choice?Axiom of Choice (Naive Set Theory, Halmos)Is there a “strong” version of the axiom of choice?Defining relations without axiom of choiceEvery set of pairwise disjoint sets has a choice function implies ACAxiom of binary choice vs Axiom of finite choiceSet Theory: Equivalency of Axiom of Choice and Choice Function













0












$begingroup$


I'd like to know if my proof is correct or incorrect in the following.



Given definition of Axiom of Choice (AoC): The direct product of a family of non-empty sets indexed by a non-empty set is non-empty.



Show that the Axiom of Choice is equivalent to the statement that every set has a choice function.



(Choice Function => AoC):



Suppose every set has a choice function.



Let S be a set, and fix a natural number n.



Let $$
I = 1,2,....,n
$$
and let $mathbf A$ be a family of non-empty subsets of S sets indexed over I.



$$
mathbf A = A_1, A_2, ... , A_n
$$



The task is to show that the direct product over sets in $mathbfA$ is non-empty. This will be shown if an element of this set can be produced.



Let
$$
D = A_1 times A_2 times ... times A_n
$$



By supposition, this set has a choice function $f$ defined over non-empty subsets $X$ of $D$ with the following:



$f: X to D$ such that $f(X)∈X$ for all subsets $X$.



So, $f(X) ∈ X$ $Rightarrow$ $f(X) ∈ D$.



So, $D$ is non-empty.



(Show AoC => Choice Function):



Suppose the Axiom of Choice, let S be a set, and fix a natural number n.



Let
$$
I = 1,2,....,n
$$
and let



$$
mathbfA = A_1,A_2,....,A_n
$$



be a family of non-empty subsets of S indexed over I.



Let
$$
D = A_1 times A_2 times ... times A_n
$$



By the Axiom of choice, $D$ is non-empty.



Let $y ∈ D$ and define a function $f: D to D$ by $f(x) = y$ for all elements $x ∈ D$.



(So, every element of D is mapped to this fixed element $y$.)



So, $f(x)∈D$ for all $x∈ D$.



In other words, $f$ defines a choice function on $D$.



So, assuming the Axiom of Choice implies that $S$ has a choice function defined on its non-empty subsets.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Your choice function -> AoC argument looks wrong to me. 'By supposition, this set has a choice function defined over non-empty subsets', but you haven't shown that there are any non-empty subsets of D! That is, after all, the thing you're trying to prove.
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Jul 19 '17 at 0:18






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Also, you index over 'finite' products $A_1ldots A_n$, but that doesn't take AC; the non-emptyness of a finite product can be proven in ZF. Choice is only relevant for infinite products.
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Jul 19 '17 at 0:20










  • $begingroup$
    For some basic information about writing math at this site see e.g. here, here, here and here.
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Sleziak
    Sep 4 '17 at 6:04










  • $begingroup$
    The set-theoretic def'n of $prod_jin JA_j$ is the set of functions from $J$ into $cup A_j:jin J$ that satisfy $forall jin J;(f(j)in A_j). $
    $endgroup$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Sep 4 '17 at 8:28















0












$begingroup$


I'd like to know if my proof is correct or incorrect in the following.



Given definition of Axiom of Choice (AoC): The direct product of a family of non-empty sets indexed by a non-empty set is non-empty.



Show that the Axiom of Choice is equivalent to the statement that every set has a choice function.



(Choice Function => AoC):



Suppose every set has a choice function.



Let S be a set, and fix a natural number n.



Let $$
I = 1,2,....,n
$$
and let $mathbf A$ be a family of non-empty subsets of S sets indexed over I.



$$
mathbf A = A_1, A_2, ... , A_n
$$



The task is to show that the direct product over sets in $mathbfA$ is non-empty. This will be shown if an element of this set can be produced.



Let
$$
D = A_1 times A_2 times ... times A_n
$$



By supposition, this set has a choice function $f$ defined over non-empty subsets $X$ of $D$ with the following:



$f: X to D$ such that $f(X)∈X$ for all subsets $X$.



So, $f(X) ∈ X$ $Rightarrow$ $f(X) ∈ D$.



So, $D$ is non-empty.



(Show AoC => Choice Function):



Suppose the Axiom of Choice, let S be a set, and fix a natural number n.



Let
$$
I = 1,2,....,n
$$
and let



$$
mathbfA = A_1,A_2,....,A_n
$$



be a family of non-empty subsets of S indexed over I.



Let
$$
D = A_1 times A_2 times ... times A_n
$$



By the Axiom of choice, $D$ is non-empty.



Let $y ∈ D$ and define a function $f: D to D$ by $f(x) = y$ for all elements $x ∈ D$.



(So, every element of D is mapped to this fixed element $y$.)



So, $f(x)∈D$ for all $x∈ D$.



In other words, $f$ defines a choice function on $D$.



So, assuming the Axiom of Choice implies that $S$ has a choice function defined on its non-empty subsets.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Your choice function -> AoC argument looks wrong to me. 'By supposition, this set has a choice function defined over non-empty subsets', but you haven't shown that there are any non-empty subsets of D! That is, after all, the thing you're trying to prove.
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Jul 19 '17 at 0:18






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Also, you index over 'finite' products $A_1ldots A_n$, but that doesn't take AC; the non-emptyness of a finite product can be proven in ZF. Choice is only relevant for infinite products.
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Jul 19 '17 at 0:20










  • $begingroup$
    For some basic information about writing math at this site see e.g. here, here, here and here.
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Sleziak
    Sep 4 '17 at 6:04










  • $begingroup$
    The set-theoretic def'n of $prod_jin JA_j$ is the set of functions from $J$ into $cup A_j:jin J$ that satisfy $forall jin J;(f(j)in A_j). $
    $endgroup$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Sep 4 '17 at 8:28













0












0








0


2



$begingroup$


I'd like to know if my proof is correct or incorrect in the following.



Given definition of Axiom of Choice (AoC): The direct product of a family of non-empty sets indexed by a non-empty set is non-empty.



Show that the Axiom of Choice is equivalent to the statement that every set has a choice function.



(Choice Function => AoC):



Suppose every set has a choice function.



Let S be a set, and fix a natural number n.



Let $$
I = 1,2,....,n
$$
and let $mathbf A$ be a family of non-empty subsets of S sets indexed over I.



$$
mathbf A = A_1, A_2, ... , A_n
$$



The task is to show that the direct product over sets in $mathbfA$ is non-empty. This will be shown if an element of this set can be produced.



Let
$$
D = A_1 times A_2 times ... times A_n
$$



By supposition, this set has a choice function $f$ defined over non-empty subsets $X$ of $D$ with the following:



$f: X to D$ such that $f(X)∈X$ for all subsets $X$.



So, $f(X) ∈ X$ $Rightarrow$ $f(X) ∈ D$.



So, $D$ is non-empty.



(Show AoC => Choice Function):



Suppose the Axiom of Choice, let S be a set, and fix a natural number n.



Let
$$
I = 1,2,....,n
$$
and let



$$
mathbfA = A_1,A_2,....,A_n
$$



be a family of non-empty subsets of S indexed over I.



Let
$$
D = A_1 times A_2 times ... times A_n
$$



By the Axiom of choice, $D$ is non-empty.



Let $y ∈ D$ and define a function $f: D to D$ by $f(x) = y$ for all elements $x ∈ D$.



(So, every element of D is mapped to this fixed element $y$.)



So, $f(x)∈D$ for all $x∈ D$.



In other words, $f$ defines a choice function on $D$.



So, assuming the Axiom of Choice implies that $S$ has a choice function defined on its non-empty subsets.










share|cite|improve this question











$endgroup$




I'd like to know if my proof is correct or incorrect in the following.



Given definition of Axiom of Choice (AoC): The direct product of a family of non-empty sets indexed by a non-empty set is non-empty.



Show that the Axiom of Choice is equivalent to the statement that every set has a choice function.



(Choice Function => AoC):



Suppose every set has a choice function.



Let S be a set, and fix a natural number n.



Let $$
I = 1,2,....,n
$$
and let $mathbf A$ be a family of non-empty subsets of S sets indexed over I.



$$
mathbf A = A_1, A_2, ... , A_n
$$



The task is to show that the direct product over sets in $mathbfA$ is non-empty. This will be shown if an element of this set can be produced.



Let
$$
D = A_1 times A_2 times ... times A_n
$$



By supposition, this set has a choice function $f$ defined over non-empty subsets $X$ of $D$ with the following:



$f: X to D$ such that $f(X)∈X$ for all subsets $X$.



So, $f(X) ∈ X$ $Rightarrow$ $f(X) ∈ D$.



So, $D$ is non-empty.



(Show AoC => Choice Function):



Suppose the Axiom of Choice, let S be a set, and fix a natural number n.



Let
$$
I = 1,2,....,n
$$
and let



$$
mathbfA = A_1,A_2,....,A_n
$$



be a family of non-empty subsets of S indexed over I.



Let
$$
D = A_1 times A_2 times ... times A_n
$$



By the Axiom of choice, $D$ is non-empty.



Let $y ∈ D$ and define a function $f: D to D$ by $f(x) = y$ for all elements $x ∈ D$.



(So, every element of D is mapped to this fixed element $y$.)



So, $f(x)∈D$ for all $x∈ D$.



In other words, $f$ defines a choice function on $D$.



So, assuming the Axiom of Choice implies that $S$ has a choice function defined on its non-empty subsets.







set-theory axiom-of-choice






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Sep 4 '17 at 14:03









Andrés E. Caicedo

65.8k8160252




65.8k8160252










asked Jul 18 '17 at 23:50









user2192320user2192320

595




595







  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Your choice function -> AoC argument looks wrong to me. 'By supposition, this set has a choice function defined over non-empty subsets', but you haven't shown that there are any non-empty subsets of D! That is, after all, the thing you're trying to prove.
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Jul 19 '17 at 0:18






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Also, you index over 'finite' products $A_1ldots A_n$, but that doesn't take AC; the non-emptyness of a finite product can be proven in ZF. Choice is only relevant for infinite products.
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Jul 19 '17 at 0:20










  • $begingroup$
    For some basic information about writing math at this site see e.g. here, here, here and here.
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Sleziak
    Sep 4 '17 at 6:04










  • $begingroup$
    The set-theoretic def'n of $prod_jin JA_j$ is the set of functions from $J$ into $cup A_j:jin J$ that satisfy $forall jin J;(f(j)in A_j). $
    $endgroup$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Sep 4 '17 at 8:28












  • 1




    $begingroup$
    Your choice function -> AoC argument looks wrong to me. 'By supposition, this set has a choice function defined over non-empty subsets', but you haven't shown that there are any non-empty subsets of D! That is, after all, the thing you're trying to prove.
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Jul 19 '17 at 0:18






  • 2




    $begingroup$
    Also, you index over 'finite' products $A_1ldots A_n$, but that doesn't take AC; the non-emptyness of a finite product can be proven in ZF. Choice is only relevant for infinite products.
    $endgroup$
    – Steven Stadnicki
    Jul 19 '17 at 0:20










  • $begingroup$
    For some basic information about writing math at this site see e.g. here, here, here and here.
    $endgroup$
    – Martin Sleziak
    Sep 4 '17 at 6:04










  • $begingroup$
    The set-theoretic def'n of $prod_jin JA_j$ is the set of functions from $J$ into $cup A_j:jin J$ that satisfy $forall jin J;(f(j)in A_j). $
    $endgroup$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Sep 4 '17 at 8:28







1




1




$begingroup$
Your choice function -> AoC argument looks wrong to me. 'By supposition, this set has a choice function defined over non-empty subsets', but you haven't shown that there are any non-empty subsets of D! That is, after all, the thing you're trying to prove.
$endgroup$
– Steven Stadnicki
Jul 19 '17 at 0:18




$begingroup$
Your choice function -> AoC argument looks wrong to me. 'By supposition, this set has a choice function defined over non-empty subsets', but you haven't shown that there are any non-empty subsets of D! That is, after all, the thing you're trying to prove.
$endgroup$
– Steven Stadnicki
Jul 19 '17 at 0:18




2




2




$begingroup$
Also, you index over 'finite' products $A_1ldots A_n$, but that doesn't take AC; the non-emptyness of a finite product can be proven in ZF. Choice is only relevant for infinite products.
$endgroup$
– Steven Stadnicki
Jul 19 '17 at 0:20




$begingroup$
Also, you index over 'finite' products $A_1ldots A_n$, but that doesn't take AC; the non-emptyness of a finite product can be proven in ZF. Choice is only relevant for infinite products.
$endgroup$
– Steven Stadnicki
Jul 19 '17 at 0:20












$begingroup$
For some basic information about writing math at this site see e.g. here, here, here and here.
$endgroup$
– Martin Sleziak
Sep 4 '17 at 6:04




$begingroup$
For some basic information about writing math at this site see e.g. here, here, here and here.
$endgroup$
– Martin Sleziak
Sep 4 '17 at 6:04












$begingroup$
The set-theoretic def'n of $prod_jin JA_j$ is the set of functions from $J$ into $cup A_j:jin J$ that satisfy $forall jin J;(f(j)in A_j). $
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
Sep 4 '17 at 8:28




$begingroup$
The set-theoretic def'n of $prod_jin JA_j$ is the set of functions from $J$ into $cup A_j:jin J$ that satisfy $forall jin J;(f(j)in A_j). $
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
Sep 4 '17 at 8:28










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















2












$begingroup$

You are working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the Choice Function $Rightarrow$ AoC direction you don't know if $D$ is nonempty, that is what you are trying to pare working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the AoC $Rightarrow$ Choce Function direction you need a choice function on $mathcalA,$ not in $D.$ Moreover, I think we need to clarify some definitions.



First one definition



Definition: Let $mathcalA$ be a nonempty collection os sets. A surjective function $f$ from some set $J$ to $mathcalA$ is called an indexing function for $mathcalA.$ $J$ is called the index set. The collection $mathcalA,$ together with $f,$ is called an indexed family of sets.



I'll use your definition of axiom of choice.



Axiom of choice: For any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product
$$ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$$
is not empty. Recall that the cartesian product is the set of all functions
$$ mathbfx:J to bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
such that $mathbfx(alpha) in A_alpha$ for all $alpha in J.$



Now,



Existence of a choice function: Given a collection $mathcalA$ of nonempty sets, there exists a function
$$ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $c(A)$ is an element of $A: c(A)in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$



Axiom of choice $Rightarrow$ Existence of choice function.



We are assuming that for any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product $ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$ is not empty. Let $mathcalA$ be a collection of nonempty sets. We have to prove that there exists a function $ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ We first index $mathcalA$: let $J=mathcalA$ and $f:mathcalA to mathcalA$ given by $f(A)=A.$ Then $A_A in mathcalA$ is an indexed family of sets, so we can consider its cartesian product $prod_A in mathcalAA.$ By hypothesis, this product is nonempty, so there exists a function
$$ mathbfx: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $mathbfx(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Then $c=mathbfx$ is the function we were looking for.



Existence of choice function $Rightarrow$ Axiom of choice



Now we are assuming that the existence of choice function, and let $A_alpha _alpha in J$ be an indexed family of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0.$ This means that there is a nonempty collection of sets $mathcalA$ and there is an indexing (i.e. surjective) function $f:J to mathcalA$ such that $f(alpha)=A_alpha in mathcalA$ for each $alpha in J.$ By the existence of choice function, there is a function $c:mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Thus
the function
$$ mathbfx:= c circ f : J to mathcalA = bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
satisfies $mathbfx(alpha)=c(f(alpha))=c(A_alpha) in A_alpha$ for each $alpha in J,$ so the product $prod_alpha in JA_alpha$ is nonempty.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for the feedback; I appreciate it! Btw, this is just for my own interest; not for a class or anything...
    $endgroup$
    – user2192320
    Jul 19 '17 at 14:13










  • $begingroup$
    A member of $P=prod_ain AA_a$ is a choice-function for $A_a:ain A$ by the def'n of $P$ and the def'n of a choice-function. So the proposition is essentially a tautology.
    $endgroup$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Jul 19 '17 at 16:35










  • $begingroup$
    Your answer is clear, full of relevant definitions, and concise!
    $endgroup$
    – Le Anh Dung
    Feb 23 '18 at 7:42











Your Answer





StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function ()
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function ()
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix)
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
);
);
, "mathjax-editing");

StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "69"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);

else
createEditor();

);

function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: true,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: 10,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);



);













draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f2363289%2faxiom-of-choice-iff-every-set-has-a-choice-function%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









2












$begingroup$

You are working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the Choice Function $Rightarrow$ AoC direction you don't know if $D$ is nonempty, that is what you are trying to pare working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the AoC $Rightarrow$ Choce Function direction you need a choice function on $mathcalA,$ not in $D.$ Moreover, I think we need to clarify some definitions.



First one definition



Definition: Let $mathcalA$ be a nonempty collection os sets. A surjective function $f$ from some set $J$ to $mathcalA$ is called an indexing function for $mathcalA.$ $J$ is called the index set. The collection $mathcalA,$ together with $f,$ is called an indexed family of sets.



I'll use your definition of axiom of choice.



Axiom of choice: For any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product
$$ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$$
is not empty. Recall that the cartesian product is the set of all functions
$$ mathbfx:J to bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
such that $mathbfx(alpha) in A_alpha$ for all $alpha in J.$



Now,



Existence of a choice function: Given a collection $mathcalA$ of nonempty sets, there exists a function
$$ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $c(A)$ is an element of $A: c(A)in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$



Axiom of choice $Rightarrow$ Existence of choice function.



We are assuming that for any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product $ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$ is not empty. Let $mathcalA$ be a collection of nonempty sets. We have to prove that there exists a function $ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ We first index $mathcalA$: let $J=mathcalA$ and $f:mathcalA to mathcalA$ given by $f(A)=A.$ Then $A_A in mathcalA$ is an indexed family of sets, so we can consider its cartesian product $prod_A in mathcalAA.$ By hypothesis, this product is nonempty, so there exists a function
$$ mathbfx: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $mathbfx(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Then $c=mathbfx$ is the function we were looking for.



Existence of choice function $Rightarrow$ Axiom of choice



Now we are assuming that the existence of choice function, and let $A_alpha _alpha in J$ be an indexed family of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0.$ This means that there is a nonempty collection of sets $mathcalA$ and there is an indexing (i.e. surjective) function $f:J to mathcalA$ such that $f(alpha)=A_alpha in mathcalA$ for each $alpha in J.$ By the existence of choice function, there is a function $c:mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Thus
the function
$$ mathbfx:= c circ f : J to mathcalA = bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
satisfies $mathbfx(alpha)=c(f(alpha))=c(A_alpha) in A_alpha$ for each $alpha in J,$ so the product $prod_alpha in JA_alpha$ is nonempty.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for the feedback; I appreciate it! Btw, this is just for my own interest; not for a class or anything...
    $endgroup$
    – user2192320
    Jul 19 '17 at 14:13










  • $begingroup$
    A member of $P=prod_ain AA_a$ is a choice-function for $A_a:ain A$ by the def'n of $P$ and the def'n of a choice-function. So the proposition is essentially a tautology.
    $endgroup$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Jul 19 '17 at 16:35










  • $begingroup$
    Your answer is clear, full of relevant definitions, and concise!
    $endgroup$
    – Le Anh Dung
    Feb 23 '18 at 7:42















2












$begingroup$

You are working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the Choice Function $Rightarrow$ AoC direction you don't know if $D$ is nonempty, that is what you are trying to pare working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the AoC $Rightarrow$ Choce Function direction you need a choice function on $mathcalA,$ not in $D.$ Moreover, I think we need to clarify some definitions.



First one definition



Definition: Let $mathcalA$ be a nonempty collection os sets. A surjective function $f$ from some set $J$ to $mathcalA$ is called an indexing function for $mathcalA.$ $J$ is called the index set. The collection $mathcalA,$ together with $f,$ is called an indexed family of sets.



I'll use your definition of axiom of choice.



Axiom of choice: For any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product
$$ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$$
is not empty. Recall that the cartesian product is the set of all functions
$$ mathbfx:J to bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
such that $mathbfx(alpha) in A_alpha$ for all $alpha in J.$



Now,



Existence of a choice function: Given a collection $mathcalA$ of nonempty sets, there exists a function
$$ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $c(A)$ is an element of $A: c(A)in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$



Axiom of choice $Rightarrow$ Existence of choice function.



We are assuming that for any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product $ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$ is not empty. Let $mathcalA$ be a collection of nonempty sets. We have to prove that there exists a function $ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ We first index $mathcalA$: let $J=mathcalA$ and $f:mathcalA to mathcalA$ given by $f(A)=A.$ Then $A_A in mathcalA$ is an indexed family of sets, so we can consider its cartesian product $prod_A in mathcalAA.$ By hypothesis, this product is nonempty, so there exists a function
$$ mathbfx: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $mathbfx(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Then $c=mathbfx$ is the function we were looking for.



Existence of choice function $Rightarrow$ Axiom of choice



Now we are assuming that the existence of choice function, and let $A_alpha _alpha in J$ be an indexed family of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0.$ This means that there is a nonempty collection of sets $mathcalA$ and there is an indexing (i.e. surjective) function $f:J to mathcalA$ such that $f(alpha)=A_alpha in mathcalA$ for each $alpha in J.$ By the existence of choice function, there is a function $c:mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Thus
the function
$$ mathbfx:= c circ f : J to mathcalA = bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
satisfies $mathbfx(alpha)=c(f(alpha))=c(A_alpha) in A_alpha$ for each $alpha in J,$ so the product $prod_alpha in JA_alpha$ is nonempty.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for the feedback; I appreciate it! Btw, this is just for my own interest; not for a class or anything...
    $endgroup$
    – user2192320
    Jul 19 '17 at 14:13










  • $begingroup$
    A member of $P=prod_ain AA_a$ is a choice-function for $A_a:ain A$ by the def'n of $P$ and the def'n of a choice-function. So the proposition is essentially a tautology.
    $endgroup$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Jul 19 '17 at 16:35










  • $begingroup$
    Your answer is clear, full of relevant definitions, and concise!
    $endgroup$
    – Le Anh Dung
    Feb 23 '18 at 7:42













2












2








2





$begingroup$

You are working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the Choice Function $Rightarrow$ AoC direction you don't know if $D$ is nonempty, that is what you are trying to pare working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the AoC $Rightarrow$ Choce Function direction you need a choice function on $mathcalA,$ not in $D.$ Moreover, I think we need to clarify some definitions.



First one definition



Definition: Let $mathcalA$ be a nonempty collection os sets. A surjective function $f$ from some set $J$ to $mathcalA$ is called an indexing function for $mathcalA.$ $J$ is called the index set. The collection $mathcalA,$ together with $f,$ is called an indexed family of sets.



I'll use your definition of axiom of choice.



Axiom of choice: For any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product
$$ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$$
is not empty. Recall that the cartesian product is the set of all functions
$$ mathbfx:J to bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
such that $mathbfx(alpha) in A_alpha$ for all $alpha in J.$



Now,



Existence of a choice function: Given a collection $mathcalA$ of nonempty sets, there exists a function
$$ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $c(A)$ is an element of $A: c(A)in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$



Axiom of choice $Rightarrow$ Existence of choice function.



We are assuming that for any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product $ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$ is not empty. Let $mathcalA$ be a collection of nonempty sets. We have to prove that there exists a function $ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ We first index $mathcalA$: let $J=mathcalA$ and $f:mathcalA to mathcalA$ given by $f(A)=A.$ Then $A_A in mathcalA$ is an indexed family of sets, so we can consider its cartesian product $prod_A in mathcalAA.$ By hypothesis, this product is nonempty, so there exists a function
$$ mathbfx: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $mathbfx(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Then $c=mathbfx$ is the function we were looking for.



Existence of choice function $Rightarrow$ Axiom of choice



Now we are assuming that the existence of choice function, and let $A_alpha _alpha in J$ be an indexed family of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0.$ This means that there is a nonempty collection of sets $mathcalA$ and there is an indexing (i.e. surjective) function $f:J to mathcalA$ such that $f(alpha)=A_alpha in mathcalA$ for each $alpha in J.$ By the existence of choice function, there is a function $c:mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Thus
the function
$$ mathbfx:= c circ f : J to mathcalA = bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
satisfies $mathbfx(alpha)=c(f(alpha))=c(A_alpha) in A_alpha$ for each $alpha in J,$ so the product $prod_alpha in JA_alpha$ is nonempty.






share|cite|improve this answer











$endgroup$



You are working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the Choice Function $Rightarrow$ AoC direction you don't know if $D$ is nonempty, that is what you are trying to pare working only with finite products, and this hold in general. In the AoC $Rightarrow$ Choce Function direction you need a choice function on $mathcalA,$ not in $D.$ Moreover, I think we need to clarify some definitions.



First one definition



Definition: Let $mathcalA$ be a nonempty collection os sets. A surjective function $f$ from some set $J$ to $mathcalA$ is called an indexing function for $mathcalA.$ $J$ is called the index set. The collection $mathcalA,$ together with $f,$ is called an indexed family of sets.



I'll use your definition of axiom of choice.



Axiom of choice: For any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product
$$ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$$
is not empty. Recall that the cartesian product is the set of all functions
$$ mathbfx:J to bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
such that $mathbfx(alpha) in A_alpha$ for all $alpha in J.$



Now,



Existence of a choice function: Given a collection $mathcalA$ of nonempty sets, there exists a function
$$ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $c(A)$ is an element of $A: c(A)in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$



Axiom of choice $Rightarrow$ Existence of choice function.



We are assuming that for any indexed family $ A_alpha _alpha in J$ of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0,$ the cartesian product $ prod_alpha in J A_alpha$ is not empty. Let $mathcalA$ be a collection of nonempty sets. We have to prove that there exists a function $ c: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ We first index $mathcalA$: let $J=mathcalA$ and $f:mathcalA to mathcalA$ given by $f(A)=A.$ Then $A_A in mathcalA$ is an indexed family of sets, so we can consider its cartesian product $prod_A in mathcalAA.$ By hypothesis, this product is nonempty, so there exists a function
$$ mathbfx: mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$$
such that $mathbfx(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Then $c=mathbfx$ is the function we were looking for.



Existence of choice function $Rightarrow$ Axiom of choice



Now we are assuming that the existence of choice function, and let $A_alpha _alpha in J$ be an indexed family of nonempty sets, with $J neq 0.$ This means that there is a nonempty collection of sets $mathcalA$ and there is an indexing (i.e. surjective) function $f:J to mathcalA$ such that $f(alpha)=A_alpha in mathcalA$ for each $alpha in J.$ By the existence of choice function, there is a function $c:mathcalA to bigcup_A in mathcalAA$ such that $c(A) in A$ for each $A in mathcalA.$ Thus
the function
$$ mathbfx:= c circ f : J to mathcalA = bigcup_alpha in JA_alpha$$
satisfies $mathbfx(alpha)=c(f(alpha))=c(A_alpha) in A_alpha$ for each $alpha in J,$ so the product $prod_alpha in JA_alpha$ is nonempty.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Mar 21 at 6:39









ZWJ

319




319










answered Jul 19 '17 at 0:18









positrón0802positrón0802

4,513520




4,513520











  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for the feedback; I appreciate it! Btw, this is just for my own interest; not for a class or anything...
    $endgroup$
    – user2192320
    Jul 19 '17 at 14:13










  • $begingroup$
    A member of $P=prod_ain AA_a$ is a choice-function for $A_a:ain A$ by the def'n of $P$ and the def'n of a choice-function. So the proposition is essentially a tautology.
    $endgroup$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Jul 19 '17 at 16:35










  • $begingroup$
    Your answer is clear, full of relevant definitions, and concise!
    $endgroup$
    – Le Anh Dung
    Feb 23 '18 at 7:42
















  • $begingroup$
    Thank you for the feedback; I appreciate it! Btw, this is just for my own interest; not for a class or anything...
    $endgroup$
    – user2192320
    Jul 19 '17 at 14:13










  • $begingroup$
    A member of $P=prod_ain AA_a$ is a choice-function for $A_a:ain A$ by the def'n of $P$ and the def'n of a choice-function. So the proposition is essentially a tautology.
    $endgroup$
    – DanielWainfleet
    Jul 19 '17 at 16:35










  • $begingroup$
    Your answer is clear, full of relevant definitions, and concise!
    $endgroup$
    – Le Anh Dung
    Feb 23 '18 at 7:42















$begingroup$
Thank you for the feedback; I appreciate it! Btw, this is just for my own interest; not for a class or anything...
$endgroup$
– user2192320
Jul 19 '17 at 14:13




$begingroup$
Thank you for the feedback; I appreciate it! Btw, this is just for my own interest; not for a class or anything...
$endgroup$
– user2192320
Jul 19 '17 at 14:13












$begingroup$
A member of $P=prod_ain AA_a$ is a choice-function for $A_a:ain A$ by the def'n of $P$ and the def'n of a choice-function. So the proposition is essentially a tautology.
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
Jul 19 '17 at 16:35




$begingroup$
A member of $P=prod_ain AA_a$ is a choice-function for $A_a:ain A$ by the def'n of $P$ and the def'n of a choice-function. So the proposition is essentially a tautology.
$endgroup$
– DanielWainfleet
Jul 19 '17 at 16:35












$begingroup$
Your answer is clear, full of relevant definitions, and concise!
$endgroup$
– Le Anh Dung
Feb 23 '18 at 7:42




$begingroup$
Your answer is clear, full of relevant definitions, and concise!
$endgroup$
– Le Anh Dung
Feb 23 '18 at 7:42

















draft saved

draft discarded
















































Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid


  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f2363289%2faxiom-of-choice-iff-every-set-has-a-choice-function%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

How should I support this large drywall patch? Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern) Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?How do I cover large gaps in drywall?How do I keep drywall around a patch from crumbling?Can I glue a second layer of drywall?How to patch long strip on drywall?Large drywall patch: how to avoid bulging seams?Drywall Mesh Patch vs. Bulge? To remove or not to remove?How to fix this drywall job?Prep drywall before backsplashWhat's the best way to fix this horrible drywall patch job?Drywall patching using 3M Patch Plus Primer

random experiment with two different functions on unit interval Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Random variable and probability space notionsRandom Walk with EdgesFinding functions where the increase over a random interval is Poisson distributedNumber of days until dayCan an observed event in fact be of zero probability?Unit random processmodels of coins and uniform distributionHow to get the number of successes given $n$ trials , probability $P$ and a random variable $X$Absorbing Markov chain in a computer. Is “almost every” turned into always convergence in computer executions?Stopped random walk is not uniformly integrable

Lowndes Grove History Architecture References Navigation menu32°48′6″N 79°57′58″W / 32.80167°N 79.96611°W / 32.80167; -79.9661132°48′6″N 79°57′58″W / 32.80167°N 79.96611°W / 32.80167; -79.9661178002500"National Register Information System"Historic houses of South Carolina"Lowndes Grove""+32° 48' 6.00", −79° 57' 58.00""Lowndes Grove, Charleston County (260 St. Margaret St., Charleston)""Lowndes Grove"The Charleston ExpositionIt Happened in South Carolina"Lowndes Grove (House), Saint Margaret Street & Sixth Avenue, Charleston, Charleston County, SC(Photographs)"Plantations of the Carolina Low Countrye