If infinitesimal transformations commute why don't the generators of the Lorentz group commute? The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InWhy do we use the complexification of the Lorentz group?Difference Between Algebra of Infinitesimal Conformal Transformations & Conformal AlgebraSubgroup of Lorentz Group Generated by BoostsLorentz Group Generators: Two MethodsMeaning of Lorentz GeneratorsFinite lorentz transform for 4-vectors in terms of the generatorsOn the generators of the Lorentz groupLie group compactness from generatorsRelation between the Dirac Algebra and the Lorentz groupCommutation relations of the generators of the Lorentz group
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If infinitesimal transformations commute why don't the generators of the Lorentz group commute?
The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InWhy do we use the complexification of the Lorentz group?Difference Between Algebra of Infinitesimal Conformal Transformations & Conformal AlgebraSubgroup of Lorentz Group Generated by BoostsLorentz Group Generators: Two MethodsMeaning of Lorentz GeneratorsFinite lorentz transform for 4-vectors in terms of the generatorsOn the generators of the Lorentz groupLie group compactness from generatorsRelation between the Dirac Algebra and the Lorentz groupCommutation relations of the generators of the Lorentz group
$begingroup$
If infinitesimal transformations commute as proved e.g. on this mathworld.wolfram page, why are the commutators for the generators of the Lorentz group nonzero?
special-relativity group-theory lorentz-symmetry commutator lie-algebra
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If infinitesimal transformations commute as proved e.g. on this mathworld.wolfram page, why are the commutators for the generators of the Lorentz group nonzero?
special-relativity group-theory lorentz-symmetry commutator lie-algebra
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
If infinitesimal transformations commute as proved e.g. on this mathworld.wolfram page, why are the commutators for the generators of the Lorentz group nonzero?
special-relativity group-theory lorentz-symmetry commutator lie-algebra
$endgroup$
If infinitesimal transformations commute as proved e.g. on this mathworld.wolfram page, why are the commutators for the generators of the Lorentz group nonzero?
special-relativity group-theory lorentz-symmetry commutator lie-algebra
special-relativity group-theory lorentz-symmetry commutator lie-algebra
edited Mar 24 at 17:44
Qmechanic♦
107k122001241
107k122001241
asked Mar 23 at 15:23
KALLE THE BAWSMANKALLE THE BAWSMAN
1207
1207
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3 Answers
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$begingroup$
I'll use ordinary rotations as an example. The same reasoning applies for other Lorentz transformations, too.
Suppose that $G_x$ and $G_y$ generate rotations about the $x$- and $y$-axes, respectively. This means that $exp(theta G_x)$ is a rotation through angle $theta$ about the $x$-axis, and $exp(phi G_y)$ is a rotation through angle $phi$ about the $y$-axis. Those rotations don't commute with each other, so $G_x$ and $G_y$ must not commute with each other, either.
When the linked website (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/InfinitesimalRotation.html) talks about the "commutativity of infinitesimal transformations," it means that if the angles $theta$ and $phi$ both have infinitesimal magnitude $epsilonll 1$, then the rotations $exp(theta G_x)$ and $exp(phi G_y)$ commute with each other to first order in $epsilon$. This is true even though the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ don't commute with each other, because the terms in the composite rotation $exp(theta G_x)exp(phi G_y)$ that involve products of $G_x$ and $G_y$ are of order $epsilon^2llepsilon$, so the non-commutativity of the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ doesn't affect things at first order in $epsilon$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Illustrative example: It is straightforward to prove that the Lie group
$$ SO(3)~:=~ Min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid M^tM=mathbb1_3times 3, ~det(M)=1 $$
of 3D rotations is generated by the corresponding Lie algebra
$$ so(3)~:=~ min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid m^t=-m $$
of real $3times 3$ antisymmetric matrices, which clearly do not all commute.Concretely notice how the mathworld.wolfram page in eqs. (2)-(5) omits the second-order terms, whose difference reveals the commutator!
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While
beginalign
e^epsilon A e^epsilon B&=(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots)(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)tag1, ,\
&= 1+ epsilon (A+B)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+AB +B^2)+ldots
endalign
we have
beginalign
e^epsilon B e^epsilon A&=(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots), ,tag2\
&= 1+ epsilon (B+A)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+BA +B^2)+ldots
endalign
so:
- To order $epsilon$, the transformations are the same,
- To order $epsilon^2$ they are different.
Since the commutator $[A,B]$ involves products like $AB$ and $BA$, one must compare terms in $epsilon^2$ in (1) and (2) to see that they differ by a commutator.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
Your Answer
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
I'll use ordinary rotations as an example. The same reasoning applies for other Lorentz transformations, too.
Suppose that $G_x$ and $G_y$ generate rotations about the $x$- and $y$-axes, respectively. This means that $exp(theta G_x)$ is a rotation through angle $theta$ about the $x$-axis, and $exp(phi G_y)$ is a rotation through angle $phi$ about the $y$-axis. Those rotations don't commute with each other, so $G_x$ and $G_y$ must not commute with each other, either.
When the linked website (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/InfinitesimalRotation.html) talks about the "commutativity of infinitesimal transformations," it means that if the angles $theta$ and $phi$ both have infinitesimal magnitude $epsilonll 1$, then the rotations $exp(theta G_x)$ and $exp(phi G_y)$ commute with each other to first order in $epsilon$. This is true even though the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ don't commute with each other, because the terms in the composite rotation $exp(theta G_x)exp(phi G_y)$ that involve products of $G_x$ and $G_y$ are of order $epsilon^2llepsilon$, so the non-commutativity of the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ doesn't affect things at first order in $epsilon$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I'll use ordinary rotations as an example. The same reasoning applies for other Lorentz transformations, too.
Suppose that $G_x$ and $G_y$ generate rotations about the $x$- and $y$-axes, respectively. This means that $exp(theta G_x)$ is a rotation through angle $theta$ about the $x$-axis, and $exp(phi G_y)$ is a rotation through angle $phi$ about the $y$-axis. Those rotations don't commute with each other, so $G_x$ and $G_y$ must not commute with each other, either.
When the linked website (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/InfinitesimalRotation.html) talks about the "commutativity of infinitesimal transformations," it means that if the angles $theta$ and $phi$ both have infinitesimal magnitude $epsilonll 1$, then the rotations $exp(theta G_x)$ and $exp(phi G_y)$ commute with each other to first order in $epsilon$. This is true even though the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ don't commute with each other, because the terms in the composite rotation $exp(theta G_x)exp(phi G_y)$ that involve products of $G_x$ and $G_y$ are of order $epsilon^2llepsilon$, so the non-commutativity of the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ doesn't affect things at first order in $epsilon$.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I'll use ordinary rotations as an example. The same reasoning applies for other Lorentz transformations, too.
Suppose that $G_x$ and $G_y$ generate rotations about the $x$- and $y$-axes, respectively. This means that $exp(theta G_x)$ is a rotation through angle $theta$ about the $x$-axis, and $exp(phi G_y)$ is a rotation through angle $phi$ about the $y$-axis. Those rotations don't commute with each other, so $G_x$ and $G_y$ must not commute with each other, either.
When the linked website (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/InfinitesimalRotation.html) talks about the "commutativity of infinitesimal transformations," it means that if the angles $theta$ and $phi$ both have infinitesimal magnitude $epsilonll 1$, then the rotations $exp(theta G_x)$ and $exp(phi G_y)$ commute with each other to first order in $epsilon$. This is true even though the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ don't commute with each other, because the terms in the composite rotation $exp(theta G_x)exp(phi G_y)$ that involve products of $G_x$ and $G_y$ are of order $epsilon^2llepsilon$, so the non-commutativity of the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ doesn't affect things at first order in $epsilon$.
$endgroup$
I'll use ordinary rotations as an example. The same reasoning applies for other Lorentz transformations, too.
Suppose that $G_x$ and $G_y$ generate rotations about the $x$- and $y$-axes, respectively. This means that $exp(theta G_x)$ is a rotation through angle $theta$ about the $x$-axis, and $exp(phi G_y)$ is a rotation through angle $phi$ about the $y$-axis. Those rotations don't commute with each other, so $G_x$ and $G_y$ must not commute with each other, either.
When the linked website (http://mathworld.wolfram.com/InfinitesimalRotation.html) talks about the "commutativity of infinitesimal transformations," it means that if the angles $theta$ and $phi$ both have infinitesimal magnitude $epsilonll 1$, then the rotations $exp(theta G_x)$ and $exp(phi G_y)$ commute with each other to first order in $epsilon$. This is true even though the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ don't commute with each other, because the terms in the composite rotation $exp(theta G_x)exp(phi G_y)$ that involve products of $G_x$ and $G_y$ are of order $epsilon^2llepsilon$, so the non-commutativity of the generators $G_x$ and $G_y$ doesn't affect things at first order in $epsilon$.
answered Mar 23 at 15:57
Chiral AnomalyChiral Anomaly
13.5k21845
13.5k21845
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Illustrative example: It is straightforward to prove that the Lie group
$$ SO(3)~:=~ Min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid M^tM=mathbb1_3times 3, ~det(M)=1 $$
of 3D rotations is generated by the corresponding Lie algebra
$$ so(3)~:=~ min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid m^t=-m $$
of real $3times 3$ antisymmetric matrices, which clearly do not all commute.Concretely notice how the mathworld.wolfram page in eqs. (2)-(5) omits the second-order terms, whose difference reveals the commutator!
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Illustrative example: It is straightforward to prove that the Lie group
$$ SO(3)~:=~ Min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid M^tM=mathbb1_3times 3, ~det(M)=1 $$
of 3D rotations is generated by the corresponding Lie algebra
$$ so(3)~:=~ min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid m^t=-m $$
of real $3times 3$ antisymmetric matrices, which clearly do not all commute.Concretely notice how the mathworld.wolfram page in eqs. (2)-(5) omits the second-order terms, whose difference reveals the commutator!
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Illustrative example: It is straightforward to prove that the Lie group
$$ SO(3)~:=~ Min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid M^tM=mathbb1_3times 3, ~det(M)=1 $$
of 3D rotations is generated by the corresponding Lie algebra
$$ so(3)~:=~ min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid m^t=-m $$
of real $3times 3$ antisymmetric matrices, which clearly do not all commute.Concretely notice how the mathworld.wolfram page in eqs. (2)-(5) omits the second-order terms, whose difference reveals the commutator!
$endgroup$
Illustrative example: It is straightforward to prove that the Lie group
$$ SO(3)~:=~ Min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid M^tM=mathbb1_3times 3, ~det(M)=1 $$
of 3D rotations is generated by the corresponding Lie algebra
$$ so(3)~:=~ min rm Mat_3times 3(mathbbR) mid m^t=-m $$
of real $3times 3$ antisymmetric matrices, which clearly do not all commute.Concretely notice how the mathworld.wolfram page in eqs. (2)-(5) omits the second-order terms, whose difference reveals the commutator!
answered Mar 24 at 17:44
Qmechanic♦Qmechanic
107k122001241
107k122001241
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While
beginalign
e^epsilon A e^epsilon B&=(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots)(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)tag1, ,\
&= 1+ epsilon (A+B)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+AB +B^2)+ldots
endalign
we have
beginalign
e^epsilon B e^epsilon A&=(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots), ,tag2\
&= 1+ epsilon (B+A)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+BA +B^2)+ldots
endalign
so:
- To order $epsilon$, the transformations are the same,
- To order $epsilon^2$ they are different.
Since the commutator $[A,B]$ involves products like $AB$ and $BA$, one must compare terms in $epsilon^2$ in (1) and (2) to see that they differ by a commutator.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While
beginalign
e^epsilon A e^epsilon B&=(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots)(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)tag1, ,\
&= 1+ epsilon (A+B)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+AB +B^2)+ldots
endalign
we have
beginalign
e^epsilon B e^epsilon A&=(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots), ,tag2\
&= 1+ epsilon (B+A)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+BA +B^2)+ldots
endalign
so:
- To order $epsilon$, the transformations are the same,
- To order $epsilon^2$ they are different.
Since the commutator $[A,B]$ involves products like $AB$ and $BA$, one must compare terms in $epsilon^2$ in (1) and (2) to see that they differ by a commutator.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
While
beginalign
e^epsilon A e^epsilon B&=(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots)(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)tag1, ,\
&= 1+ epsilon (A+B)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+AB +B^2)+ldots
endalign
we have
beginalign
e^epsilon B e^epsilon A&=(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots), ,tag2\
&= 1+ epsilon (B+A)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+BA +B^2)+ldots
endalign
so:
- To order $epsilon$, the transformations are the same,
- To order $epsilon^2$ they are different.
Since the commutator $[A,B]$ involves products like $AB$ and $BA$, one must compare terms in $epsilon^2$ in (1) and (2) to see that they differ by a commutator.
$endgroup$
While
beginalign
e^epsilon A e^epsilon B&=(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots)(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)tag1, ,\
&= 1+ epsilon (A+B)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+AB +B^2)+ldots
endalign
we have
beginalign
e^epsilon B e^epsilon A&=(1+epsilon B+frac12epsilon^2 B^2+ldots)(1+epsilon A+textstylefrac12epsilon^2 A^2+ldots), ,tag2\
&= 1+ epsilon (B+A)+ frac12
epsilon^2 (A^2+BA +B^2)+ldots
endalign
so:
- To order $epsilon$, the transformations are the same,
- To order $epsilon^2$ they are different.
Since the commutator $[A,B]$ involves products like $AB$ and $BA$, one must compare terms in $epsilon^2$ in (1) and (2) to see that they differ by a commutator.
answered Mar 24 at 18:02
ZeroTheHeroZeroTheHero
21.2k53364
21.2k53364
add a comment |
add a comment |
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