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Factor of a product ring can not be free
The 2019 Stack Overflow Developer Survey Results Are InTorsion-free module morphismThe quotient of product of ringsRank of Free Module over a Noncommutative RingProve that a ring R having the property that every finitely generated R-module is free is either a field or the zero ring.If $F_1$ and $F_2$ are free modules on the same set $A$, then $F_1 cong F_2$Given a ring homomorphism and a unital module, make another moduleFactor of the product of rings cannot be free module?Is the “basis” of a free module linearly independent?finite product of artinian rings is artinianEvery projective module is a submodule of a free module?
$begingroup$
I have seen the following property in my class note but I don´t know how to prove, could someone help me?
If we consider the product ring $R=R_1timesR_2$, then $R_1$ can not be a free right $R$-module
I think that it must have a simple proof, but I don't get it.
Thanks
abstract-algebra ring-theory modules free-modules
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I have seen the following property in my class note but I don´t know how to prove, could someone help me?
If we consider the product ring $R=R_1timesR_2$, then $R_1$ can not be a free right $R$-module
I think that it must have a simple proof, but I don't get it.
Thanks
abstract-algebra ring-theory modules free-modules
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Do you want a proof that this is always the case, or simply that $R_1$ need not be a free $R$-module? If it is the latter, then a cardinality argument would work: suppose $R_1congBbbF_2$ and $R_2congBbbF_3.$ In this case, $# R = 6.$ As any [finite] free $R$-module $M$ satisfies $Mcong bigoplus_i = 1^n R$ for some $n,$ we have $# M = 6^n.$ But $2neq 6^n$ for any integer $n.$
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 20:47
$begingroup$
Yes, I want to prove that in every product ring $R=R_1times R_2$ (with $R_1$ and $R_2$ non trivial) we have that $R_1$ is not free
$endgroup$
– mejopa
Mar 23 at 22:16
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I have seen the following property in my class note but I don´t know how to prove, could someone help me?
If we consider the product ring $R=R_1timesR_2$, then $R_1$ can not be a free right $R$-module
I think that it must have a simple proof, but I don't get it.
Thanks
abstract-algebra ring-theory modules free-modules
$endgroup$
I have seen the following property in my class note but I don´t know how to prove, could someone help me?
If we consider the product ring $R=R_1timesR_2$, then $R_1$ can not be a free right $R$-module
I think that it must have a simple proof, but I don't get it.
Thanks
abstract-algebra ring-theory modules free-modules
abstract-algebra ring-theory modules free-modules
asked Mar 23 at 17:48
mejopamejopa
111
111
$begingroup$
Do you want a proof that this is always the case, or simply that $R_1$ need not be a free $R$-module? If it is the latter, then a cardinality argument would work: suppose $R_1congBbbF_2$ and $R_2congBbbF_3.$ In this case, $# R = 6.$ As any [finite] free $R$-module $M$ satisfies $Mcong bigoplus_i = 1^n R$ for some $n,$ we have $# M = 6^n.$ But $2neq 6^n$ for any integer $n.$
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 20:47
$begingroup$
Yes, I want to prove that in every product ring $R=R_1times R_2$ (with $R_1$ and $R_2$ non trivial) we have that $R_1$ is not free
$endgroup$
– mejopa
Mar 23 at 22:16
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Do you want a proof that this is always the case, or simply that $R_1$ need not be a free $R$-module? If it is the latter, then a cardinality argument would work: suppose $R_1congBbbF_2$ and $R_2congBbbF_3.$ In this case, $# R = 6.$ As any [finite] free $R$-module $M$ satisfies $Mcong bigoplus_i = 1^n R$ for some $n,$ we have $# M = 6^n.$ But $2neq 6^n$ for any integer $n.$
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 20:47
$begingroup$
Yes, I want to prove that in every product ring $R=R_1times R_2$ (with $R_1$ and $R_2$ non trivial) we have that $R_1$ is not free
$endgroup$
– mejopa
Mar 23 at 22:16
$begingroup$
Do you want a proof that this is always the case, or simply that $R_1$ need not be a free $R$-module? If it is the latter, then a cardinality argument would work: suppose $R_1congBbbF_2$ and $R_2congBbbF_3.$ In this case, $# R = 6.$ As any [finite] free $R$-module $M$ satisfies $Mcong bigoplus_i = 1^n R$ for some $n,$ we have $# M = 6^n.$ But $2neq 6^n$ for any integer $n.$
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 20:47
$begingroup$
Do you want a proof that this is always the case, or simply that $R_1$ need not be a free $R$-module? If it is the latter, then a cardinality argument would work: suppose $R_1congBbbF_2$ and $R_2congBbbF_3.$ In this case, $# R = 6.$ As any [finite] free $R$-module $M$ satisfies $Mcong bigoplus_i = 1^n R$ for some $n,$ we have $# M = 6^n.$ But $2neq 6^n$ for any integer $n.$
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 20:47
$begingroup$
Yes, I want to prove that in every product ring $R=R_1times R_2$ (with $R_1$ and $R_2$ non trivial) we have that $R_1$ is not free
$endgroup$
– mejopa
Mar 23 at 22:16
$begingroup$
Yes, I want to prove that in every product ring $R=R_1times R_2$ (with $R_1$ and $R_2$ non trivial) we have that $R_1$ is not free
$endgroup$
– mejopa
Mar 23 at 22:16
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
Let $F$ be a nonzero free left $R$-module. Then $operatornameAnn_R(F)=rin R:rF=0=0$.
This is essentially obvious, because $F$ is a direct sum of copies of $R$.
Now note that, when $R=R_1times R_2$, $operatornameAnn_R(R_1times0)=0times R_2$. If neither $R_1$ nor $R_2$ is the trivial ring, we're done.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let's assume that things are non-trivial, that is, both $R_1$ and $R_2$ are not the zero ring.
Now, multiplication in the product ring $R_1 times R_2$ is coordinate-wise, that is, for an element $(a_1, a_2) in R_1 times R_2$ with $a_1 in R_1$ and $a_2 in R_2$, and another element $(b_1, b_2) in R_1 times R_2$ with $b_1 in R_1$ and $b_2 in R_2$, we have
$$
(a_1, a_2) cdot (b_1, b_2) = (a_1 cdot a_2, b_1 cdot b_2).
$$
Moreover, we can identify the ring $R_1$ with the subring $R_1 times 0_R_2 subseteq R_1 times R_2$ where $0_R_2$ denotes the zero element of $R_2$. The identification map is
$$
iota_1 : R_1 rightarrow R_1 times R_2,quad a mapsto (a, 0_R_2).
$$
Now, $R_1 times 0_R_2$, being a subring of $R_1 times R_2$, is a right $(R_1 times R_2)$-module, where the module operation is given by ring multiplication. That is, if we have a "module element" $(a_1, 0_R_2) in R_1 times 0_R_2$ and a "coefficiont ring element" $(a_2, b_2) in R_1 times R_2$, then the product is
$$
(a_1, 0_R_2) cdot (a_2, b_2) = (a_1 cdot a_2, 0_R_2).
$$
Now, since both $R_1$ and $R_2$ are not the zero ring, we can pick $a_3 in R_1 setminus 0_R_1$ and $b_3 in R_2 setminus 0_R_2$. With these, we construct a nonzero "module element" $(a_3, 0_R_2) in R_1 times 0_R_2$ and a nonzero "coefficient ring element" $(0_R_1, b_3) in in R_1 times R_2$. Their product is then
$$
(a_3, 0_R_2) cdot (0_R_1, b_3) = (0_R_1, 0_R_2).
$$
That is, the product of a nonzero module element and a nonzero coefficient ring element is the zero module element.
This does not happen in a free module.
So we have shown that $R_1 times 0_R_2$ is not a free right $(R_1 times R_2)$-module.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Suppose $R = BbbC[x]/(x^2).$ Then $M = R$ is certainly a free $R$-module, and $xin R$ is a nonzero ring (and module) element. However, $xcdot x = 0$ in $R.$ You need to ensure that the elements you choose are not only nonzero, but non-zero divisors (and of course, elements of the form $(0,r)$ and $(r,0)$ are always zero divisors in a product ring).
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 21:07
$begingroup$
Another counterexample to the claim that "the product of a nonzero module element and a nonzero coefficient ring element is never the zero module element in a free module" is the following: let $R$ be a nonzero ring, and consider the free rank one $Rtimes R$-module $M = Rtimes R.$ Then $(1,0)cdot(0,1) = (0,0),$ but $(1,0)$ and $(0,1)$ are nonzero ring/module elements.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 21:13
$begingroup$
So, is not this proof right?
$endgroup$
– mejopa
Mar 23 at 22:17
1
$begingroup$
@mejopa no, this argument is incorrect - the same logic would imply that $R_1times R_2$ is not free over itself, which is absurd.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 22:18
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Suppose $R_1$ and $R_2$ are nontrivial, and consider $R_1 = M$ as a right $R = R_1times R_2$-module via the natural action
beginalign*
Mtimes R&to M\
(m,(r,s))&mapsto mr.
endalign*
To show that $M$ is not free over $R,$ we must show that there is no basis of $M.$ Recall that a basis of $M$ is a subset $B = e_imid iin Isubseteq M$ such that the following two conditions hold:
- For any $min M,$ there exists a finite subset $Jsubseteq I$ and collection of elements $r_jmid jin Jsubseteq R$ such that $$m = sum_jin J e_j r_j,$$ and
- If $r_jmid jin Jsubseteq Isubseteq R$ is a finite collection of elements of $R$ such that $$sum_jin J e_j r_j = 0,$$ then $r_j = 0$ for all $j.$
To that end, suppose such a basis $B = e_i_iin Isubseteq M$ exists (as $R_1$ is nontrivial, the set $B$ is necessarily nonempty). Let $r = (0,1),$ and choose any $ein B.$ Then we have
$$
er = e(0,1) = ecdot 0 = 0,
$$
but $(0,1)in R$ is not zero (as $R_2$ is not the trivial ring). This contradicts our assumption that $B$ was a basis. Therefore, assuming that both $R_1$ and $R_2$ are nontrivial, we have shown $R_1$ cannot be a free right $R_1times R_2$-module via the natural action.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
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votes
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votes
$begingroup$
Let $F$ be a nonzero free left $R$-module. Then $operatornameAnn_R(F)=rin R:rF=0=0$.
This is essentially obvious, because $F$ is a direct sum of copies of $R$.
Now note that, when $R=R_1times R_2$, $operatornameAnn_R(R_1times0)=0times R_2$. If neither $R_1$ nor $R_2$ is the trivial ring, we're done.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $F$ be a nonzero free left $R$-module. Then $operatornameAnn_R(F)=rin R:rF=0=0$.
This is essentially obvious, because $F$ is a direct sum of copies of $R$.
Now note that, when $R=R_1times R_2$, $operatornameAnn_R(R_1times0)=0times R_2$. If neither $R_1$ nor $R_2$ is the trivial ring, we're done.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let $F$ be a nonzero free left $R$-module. Then $operatornameAnn_R(F)=rin R:rF=0=0$.
This is essentially obvious, because $F$ is a direct sum of copies of $R$.
Now note that, when $R=R_1times R_2$, $operatornameAnn_R(R_1times0)=0times R_2$. If neither $R_1$ nor $R_2$ is the trivial ring, we're done.
$endgroup$
Let $F$ be a nonzero free left $R$-module. Then $operatornameAnn_R(F)=rin R:rF=0=0$.
This is essentially obvious, because $F$ is a direct sum of copies of $R$.
Now note that, when $R=R_1times R_2$, $operatornameAnn_R(R_1times0)=0times R_2$. If neither $R_1$ nor $R_2$ is the trivial ring, we're done.
answered Mar 23 at 23:35
egregegreg
185k1486208
185k1486208
add a comment |
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let's assume that things are non-trivial, that is, both $R_1$ and $R_2$ are not the zero ring.
Now, multiplication in the product ring $R_1 times R_2$ is coordinate-wise, that is, for an element $(a_1, a_2) in R_1 times R_2$ with $a_1 in R_1$ and $a_2 in R_2$, and another element $(b_1, b_2) in R_1 times R_2$ with $b_1 in R_1$ and $b_2 in R_2$, we have
$$
(a_1, a_2) cdot (b_1, b_2) = (a_1 cdot a_2, b_1 cdot b_2).
$$
Moreover, we can identify the ring $R_1$ with the subring $R_1 times 0_R_2 subseteq R_1 times R_2$ where $0_R_2$ denotes the zero element of $R_2$. The identification map is
$$
iota_1 : R_1 rightarrow R_1 times R_2,quad a mapsto (a, 0_R_2).
$$
Now, $R_1 times 0_R_2$, being a subring of $R_1 times R_2$, is a right $(R_1 times R_2)$-module, where the module operation is given by ring multiplication. That is, if we have a "module element" $(a_1, 0_R_2) in R_1 times 0_R_2$ and a "coefficiont ring element" $(a_2, b_2) in R_1 times R_2$, then the product is
$$
(a_1, 0_R_2) cdot (a_2, b_2) = (a_1 cdot a_2, 0_R_2).
$$
Now, since both $R_1$ and $R_2$ are not the zero ring, we can pick $a_3 in R_1 setminus 0_R_1$ and $b_3 in R_2 setminus 0_R_2$. With these, we construct a nonzero "module element" $(a_3, 0_R_2) in R_1 times 0_R_2$ and a nonzero "coefficient ring element" $(0_R_1, b_3) in in R_1 times R_2$. Their product is then
$$
(a_3, 0_R_2) cdot (0_R_1, b_3) = (0_R_1, 0_R_2).
$$
That is, the product of a nonzero module element and a nonzero coefficient ring element is the zero module element.
This does not happen in a free module.
So we have shown that $R_1 times 0_R_2$ is not a free right $(R_1 times R_2)$-module.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Suppose $R = BbbC[x]/(x^2).$ Then $M = R$ is certainly a free $R$-module, and $xin R$ is a nonzero ring (and module) element. However, $xcdot x = 0$ in $R.$ You need to ensure that the elements you choose are not only nonzero, but non-zero divisors (and of course, elements of the form $(0,r)$ and $(r,0)$ are always zero divisors in a product ring).
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 21:07
$begingroup$
Another counterexample to the claim that "the product of a nonzero module element and a nonzero coefficient ring element is never the zero module element in a free module" is the following: let $R$ be a nonzero ring, and consider the free rank one $Rtimes R$-module $M = Rtimes R.$ Then $(1,0)cdot(0,1) = (0,0),$ but $(1,0)$ and $(0,1)$ are nonzero ring/module elements.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 21:13
$begingroup$
So, is not this proof right?
$endgroup$
– mejopa
Mar 23 at 22:17
1
$begingroup$
@mejopa no, this argument is incorrect - the same logic would imply that $R_1times R_2$ is not free over itself, which is absurd.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 22:18
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let's assume that things are non-trivial, that is, both $R_1$ and $R_2$ are not the zero ring.
Now, multiplication in the product ring $R_1 times R_2$ is coordinate-wise, that is, for an element $(a_1, a_2) in R_1 times R_2$ with $a_1 in R_1$ and $a_2 in R_2$, and another element $(b_1, b_2) in R_1 times R_2$ with $b_1 in R_1$ and $b_2 in R_2$, we have
$$
(a_1, a_2) cdot (b_1, b_2) = (a_1 cdot a_2, b_1 cdot b_2).
$$
Moreover, we can identify the ring $R_1$ with the subring $R_1 times 0_R_2 subseteq R_1 times R_2$ where $0_R_2$ denotes the zero element of $R_2$. The identification map is
$$
iota_1 : R_1 rightarrow R_1 times R_2,quad a mapsto (a, 0_R_2).
$$
Now, $R_1 times 0_R_2$, being a subring of $R_1 times R_2$, is a right $(R_1 times R_2)$-module, where the module operation is given by ring multiplication. That is, if we have a "module element" $(a_1, 0_R_2) in R_1 times 0_R_2$ and a "coefficiont ring element" $(a_2, b_2) in R_1 times R_2$, then the product is
$$
(a_1, 0_R_2) cdot (a_2, b_2) = (a_1 cdot a_2, 0_R_2).
$$
Now, since both $R_1$ and $R_2$ are not the zero ring, we can pick $a_3 in R_1 setminus 0_R_1$ and $b_3 in R_2 setminus 0_R_2$. With these, we construct a nonzero "module element" $(a_3, 0_R_2) in R_1 times 0_R_2$ and a nonzero "coefficient ring element" $(0_R_1, b_3) in in R_1 times R_2$. Their product is then
$$
(a_3, 0_R_2) cdot (0_R_1, b_3) = (0_R_1, 0_R_2).
$$
That is, the product of a nonzero module element and a nonzero coefficient ring element is the zero module element.
This does not happen in a free module.
So we have shown that $R_1 times 0_R_2$ is not a free right $(R_1 times R_2)$-module.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Suppose $R = BbbC[x]/(x^2).$ Then $M = R$ is certainly a free $R$-module, and $xin R$ is a nonzero ring (and module) element. However, $xcdot x = 0$ in $R.$ You need to ensure that the elements you choose are not only nonzero, but non-zero divisors (and of course, elements of the form $(0,r)$ and $(r,0)$ are always zero divisors in a product ring).
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 21:07
$begingroup$
Another counterexample to the claim that "the product of a nonzero module element and a nonzero coefficient ring element is never the zero module element in a free module" is the following: let $R$ be a nonzero ring, and consider the free rank one $Rtimes R$-module $M = Rtimes R.$ Then $(1,0)cdot(0,1) = (0,0),$ but $(1,0)$ and $(0,1)$ are nonzero ring/module elements.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 21:13
$begingroup$
So, is not this proof right?
$endgroup$
– mejopa
Mar 23 at 22:17
1
$begingroup$
@mejopa no, this argument is incorrect - the same logic would imply that $R_1times R_2$ is not free over itself, which is absurd.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 22:18
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Let's assume that things are non-trivial, that is, both $R_1$ and $R_2$ are not the zero ring.
Now, multiplication in the product ring $R_1 times R_2$ is coordinate-wise, that is, for an element $(a_1, a_2) in R_1 times R_2$ with $a_1 in R_1$ and $a_2 in R_2$, and another element $(b_1, b_2) in R_1 times R_2$ with $b_1 in R_1$ and $b_2 in R_2$, we have
$$
(a_1, a_2) cdot (b_1, b_2) = (a_1 cdot a_2, b_1 cdot b_2).
$$
Moreover, we can identify the ring $R_1$ with the subring $R_1 times 0_R_2 subseteq R_1 times R_2$ where $0_R_2$ denotes the zero element of $R_2$. The identification map is
$$
iota_1 : R_1 rightarrow R_1 times R_2,quad a mapsto (a, 0_R_2).
$$
Now, $R_1 times 0_R_2$, being a subring of $R_1 times R_2$, is a right $(R_1 times R_2)$-module, where the module operation is given by ring multiplication. That is, if we have a "module element" $(a_1, 0_R_2) in R_1 times 0_R_2$ and a "coefficiont ring element" $(a_2, b_2) in R_1 times R_2$, then the product is
$$
(a_1, 0_R_2) cdot (a_2, b_2) = (a_1 cdot a_2, 0_R_2).
$$
Now, since both $R_1$ and $R_2$ are not the zero ring, we can pick $a_3 in R_1 setminus 0_R_1$ and $b_3 in R_2 setminus 0_R_2$. With these, we construct a nonzero "module element" $(a_3, 0_R_2) in R_1 times 0_R_2$ and a nonzero "coefficient ring element" $(0_R_1, b_3) in in R_1 times R_2$. Their product is then
$$
(a_3, 0_R_2) cdot (0_R_1, b_3) = (0_R_1, 0_R_2).
$$
That is, the product of a nonzero module element and a nonzero coefficient ring element is the zero module element.
This does not happen in a free module.
So we have shown that $R_1 times 0_R_2$ is not a free right $(R_1 times R_2)$-module.
$endgroup$
Let's assume that things are non-trivial, that is, both $R_1$ and $R_2$ are not the zero ring.
Now, multiplication in the product ring $R_1 times R_2$ is coordinate-wise, that is, for an element $(a_1, a_2) in R_1 times R_2$ with $a_1 in R_1$ and $a_2 in R_2$, and another element $(b_1, b_2) in R_1 times R_2$ with $b_1 in R_1$ and $b_2 in R_2$, we have
$$
(a_1, a_2) cdot (b_1, b_2) = (a_1 cdot a_2, b_1 cdot b_2).
$$
Moreover, we can identify the ring $R_1$ with the subring $R_1 times 0_R_2 subseteq R_1 times R_2$ where $0_R_2$ denotes the zero element of $R_2$. The identification map is
$$
iota_1 : R_1 rightarrow R_1 times R_2,quad a mapsto (a, 0_R_2).
$$
Now, $R_1 times 0_R_2$, being a subring of $R_1 times R_2$, is a right $(R_1 times R_2)$-module, where the module operation is given by ring multiplication. That is, if we have a "module element" $(a_1, 0_R_2) in R_1 times 0_R_2$ and a "coefficiont ring element" $(a_2, b_2) in R_1 times R_2$, then the product is
$$
(a_1, 0_R_2) cdot (a_2, b_2) = (a_1 cdot a_2, 0_R_2).
$$
Now, since both $R_1$ and $R_2$ are not the zero ring, we can pick $a_3 in R_1 setminus 0_R_1$ and $b_3 in R_2 setminus 0_R_2$. With these, we construct a nonzero "module element" $(a_3, 0_R_2) in R_1 times 0_R_2$ and a nonzero "coefficient ring element" $(0_R_1, b_3) in in R_1 times R_2$. Their product is then
$$
(a_3, 0_R_2) cdot (0_R_1, b_3) = (0_R_1, 0_R_2).
$$
That is, the product of a nonzero module element and a nonzero coefficient ring element is the zero module element.
This does not happen in a free module.
So we have shown that $R_1 times 0_R_2$ is not a free right $(R_1 times R_2)$-module.
answered Mar 23 at 21:00
jflippjflipp
3,7511711
3,7511711
$begingroup$
Suppose $R = BbbC[x]/(x^2).$ Then $M = R$ is certainly a free $R$-module, and $xin R$ is a nonzero ring (and module) element. However, $xcdot x = 0$ in $R.$ You need to ensure that the elements you choose are not only nonzero, but non-zero divisors (and of course, elements of the form $(0,r)$ and $(r,0)$ are always zero divisors in a product ring).
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 21:07
$begingroup$
Another counterexample to the claim that "the product of a nonzero module element and a nonzero coefficient ring element is never the zero module element in a free module" is the following: let $R$ be a nonzero ring, and consider the free rank one $Rtimes R$-module $M = Rtimes R.$ Then $(1,0)cdot(0,1) = (0,0),$ but $(1,0)$ and $(0,1)$ are nonzero ring/module elements.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 21:13
$begingroup$
So, is not this proof right?
$endgroup$
– mejopa
Mar 23 at 22:17
1
$begingroup$
@mejopa no, this argument is incorrect - the same logic would imply that $R_1times R_2$ is not free over itself, which is absurd.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 22:18
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Suppose $R = BbbC[x]/(x^2).$ Then $M = R$ is certainly a free $R$-module, and $xin R$ is a nonzero ring (and module) element. However, $xcdot x = 0$ in $R.$ You need to ensure that the elements you choose are not only nonzero, but non-zero divisors (and of course, elements of the form $(0,r)$ and $(r,0)$ are always zero divisors in a product ring).
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 21:07
$begingroup$
Another counterexample to the claim that "the product of a nonzero module element and a nonzero coefficient ring element is never the zero module element in a free module" is the following: let $R$ be a nonzero ring, and consider the free rank one $Rtimes R$-module $M = Rtimes R.$ Then $(1,0)cdot(0,1) = (0,0),$ but $(1,0)$ and $(0,1)$ are nonzero ring/module elements.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 21:13
$begingroup$
So, is not this proof right?
$endgroup$
– mejopa
Mar 23 at 22:17
1
$begingroup$
@mejopa no, this argument is incorrect - the same logic would imply that $R_1times R_2$ is not free over itself, which is absurd.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 22:18
$begingroup$
Suppose $R = BbbC[x]/(x^2).$ Then $M = R$ is certainly a free $R$-module, and $xin R$ is a nonzero ring (and module) element. However, $xcdot x = 0$ in $R.$ You need to ensure that the elements you choose are not only nonzero, but non-zero divisors (and of course, elements of the form $(0,r)$ and $(r,0)$ are always zero divisors in a product ring).
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 21:07
$begingroup$
Suppose $R = BbbC[x]/(x^2).$ Then $M = R$ is certainly a free $R$-module, and $xin R$ is a nonzero ring (and module) element. However, $xcdot x = 0$ in $R.$ You need to ensure that the elements you choose are not only nonzero, but non-zero divisors (and of course, elements of the form $(0,r)$ and $(r,0)$ are always zero divisors in a product ring).
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 21:07
$begingroup$
Another counterexample to the claim that "the product of a nonzero module element and a nonzero coefficient ring element is never the zero module element in a free module" is the following: let $R$ be a nonzero ring, and consider the free rank one $Rtimes R$-module $M = Rtimes R.$ Then $(1,0)cdot(0,1) = (0,0),$ but $(1,0)$ and $(0,1)$ are nonzero ring/module elements.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 21:13
$begingroup$
Another counterexample to the claim that "the product of a nonzero module element and a nonzero coefficient ring element is never the zero module element in a free module" is the following: let $R$ be a nonzero ring, and consider the free rank one $Rtimes R$-module $M = Rtimes R.$ Then $(1,0)cdot(0,1) = (0,0),$ but $(1,0)$ and $(0,1)$ are nonzero ring/module elements.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 21:13
$begingroup$
So, is not this proof right?
$endgroup$
– mejopa
Mar 23 at 22:17
$begingroup$
So, is not this proof right?
$endgroup$
– mejopa
Mar 23 at 22:17
1
1
$begingroup$
@mejopa no, this argument is incorrect - the same logic would imply that $R_1times R_2$ is not free over itself, which is absurd.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 22:18
$begingroup$
@mejopa no, this argument is incorrect - the same logic would imply that $R_1times R_2$ is not free over itself, which is absurd.
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 22:18
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Suppose $R_1$ and $R_2$ are nontrivial, and consider $R_1 = M$ as a right $R = R_1times R_2$-module via the natural action
beginalign*
Mtimes R&to M\
(m,(r,s))&mapsto mr.
endalign*
To show that $M$ is not free over $R,$ we must show that there is no basis of $M.$ Recall that a basis of $M$ is a subset $B = e_imid iin Isubseteq M$ such that the following two conditions hold:
- For any $min M,$ there exists a finite subset $Jsubseteq I$ and collection of elements $r_jmid jin Jsubseteq R$ such that $$m = sum_jin J e_j r_j,$$ and
- If $r_jmid jin Jsubseteq Isubseteq R$ is a finite collection of elements of $R$ such that $$sum_jin J e_j r_j = 0,$$ then $r_j = 0$ for all $j.$
To that end, suppose such a basis $B = e_i_iin Isubseteq M$ exists (as $R_1$ is nontrivial, the set $B$ is necessarily nonempty). Let $r = (0,1),$ and choose any $ein B.$ Then we have
$$
er = e(0,1) = ecdot 0 = 0,
$$
but $(0,1)in R$ is not zero (as $R_2$ is not the trivial ring). This contradicts our assumption that $B$ was a basis. Therefore, assuming that both $R_1$ and $R_2$ are nontrivial, we have shown $R_1$ cannot be a free right $R_1times R_2$-module via the natural action.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Suppose $R_1$ and $R_2$ are nontrivial, and consider $R_1 = M$ as a right $R = R_1times R_2$-module via the natural action
beginalign*
Mtimes R&to M\
(m,(r,s))&mapsto mr.
endalign*
To show that $M$ is not free over $R,$ we must show that there is no basis of $M.$ Recall that a basis of $M$ is a subset $B = e_imid iin Isubseteq M$ such that the following two conditions hold:
- For any $min M,$ there exists a finite subset $Jsubseteq I$ and collection of elements $r_jmid jin Jsubseteq R$ such that $$m = sum_jin J e_j r_j,$$ and
- If $r_jmid jin Jsubseteq Isubseteq R$ is a finite collection of elements of $R$ such that $$sum_jin J e_j r_j = 0,$$ then $r_j = 0$ for all $j.$
To that end, suppose such a basis $B = e_i_iin Isubseteq M$ exists (as $R_1$ is nontrivial, the set $B$ is necessarily nonempty). Let $r = (0,1),$ and choose any $ein B.$ Then we have
$$
er = e(0,1) = ecdot 0 = 0,
$$
but $(0,1)in R$ is not zero (as $R_2$ is not the trivial ring). This contradicts our assumption that $B$ was a basis. Therefore, assuming that both $R_1$ and $R_2$ are nontrivial, we have shown $R_1$ cannot be a free right $R_1times R_2$-module via the natural action.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Suppose $R_1$ and $R_2$ are nontrivial, and consider $R_1 = M$ as a right $R = R_1times R_2$-module via the natural action
beginalign*
Mtimes R&to M\
(m,(r,s))&mapsto mr.
endalign*
To show that $M$ is not free over $R,$ we must show that there is no basis of $M.$ Recall that a basis of $M$ is a subset $B = e_imid iin Isubseteq M$ such that the following two conditions hold:
- For any $min M,$ there exists a finite subset $Jsubseteq I$ and collection of elements $r_jmid jin Jsubseteq R$ such that $$m = sum_jin J e_j r_j,$$ and
- If $r_jmid jin Jsubseteq Isubseteq R$ is a finite collection of elements of $R$ such that $$sum_jin J e_j r_j = 0,$$ then $r_j = 0$ for all $j.$
To that end, suppose such a basis $B = e_i_iin Isubseteq M$ exists (as $R_1$ is nontrivial, the set $B$ is necessarily nonempty). Let $r = (0,1),$ and choose any $ein B.$ Then we have
$$
er = e(0,1) = ecdot 0 = 0,
$$
but $(0,1)in R$ is not zero (as $R_2$ is not the trivial ring). This contradicts our assumption that $B$ was a basis. Therefore, assuming that both $R_1$ and $R_2$ are nontrivial, we have shown $R_1$ cannot be a free right $R_1times R_2$-module via the natural action.
$endgroup$
Suppose $R_1$ and $R_2$ are nontrivial, and consider $R_1 = M$ as a right $R = R_1times R_2$-module via the natural action
beginalign*
Mtimes R&to M\
(m,(r,s))&mapsto mr.
endalign*
To show that $M$ is not free over $R,$ we must show that there is no basis of $M.$ Recall that a basis of $M$ is a subset $B = e_imid iin Isubseteq M$ such that the following two conditions hold:
- For any $min M,$ there exists a finite subset $Jsubseteq I$ and collection of elements $r_jmid jin Jsubseteq R$ such that $$m = sum_jin J e_j r_j,$$ and
- If $r_jmid jin Jsubseteq Isubseteq R$ is a finite collection of elements of $R$ such that $$sum_jin J e_j r_j = 0,$$ then $r_j = 0$ for all $j.$
To that end, suppose such a basis $B = e_i_iin Isubseteq M$ exists (as $R_1$ is nontrivial, the set $B$ is necessarily nonempty). Let $r = (0,1),$ and choose any $ein B.$ Then we have
$$
er = e(0,1) = ecdot 0 = 0,
$$
but $(0,1)in R$ is not zero (as $R_2$ is not the trivial ring). This contradicts our assumption that $B$ was a basis. Therefore, assuming that both $R_1$ and $R_2$ are nontrivial, we have shown $R_1$ cannot be a free right $R_1times R_2$-module via the natural action.
edited Mar 23 at 22:41
answered Mar 23 at 22:28
StahlStahl
16.8k43455
16.8k43455
add a comment |
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
Do you want a proof that this is always the case, or simply that $R_1$ need not be a free $R$-module? If it is the latter, then a cardinality argument would work: suppose $R_1congBbbF_2$ and $R_2congBbbF_3.$ In this case, $# R = 6.$ As any [finite] free $R$-module $M$ satisfies $Mcong bigoplus_i = 1^n R$ for some $n,$ we have $# M = 6^n.$ But $2neq 6^n$ for any integer $n.$
$endgroup$
– Stahl
Mar 23 at 20:47
$begingroup$
Yes, I want to prove that in every product ring $R=R_1times R_2$ (with $R_1$ and $R_2$ non trivial) we have that $R_1$ is not free
$endgroup$
– mejopa
Mar 23 at 22:16