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How to find the smallest side of a triangle when the interior angles are unknown?
Given two adjacent sides of a rectangle are equivalent, prove that the quadrilateral is a square.Angles and relations of in triangles and quadilateralsHow to find the sum of the sides of a polygon whose one vertex goes from the north of a circle and the other comes from the east in its perimeter?Is this a recommended approach to find the square of the sides of a triangle whose been divided by a median?Does it exist an approximation using sums and a way to do the computation with more accuracy both by hand to find the length of a spiral?How to find the least number of containers required to fill up a certain quantity?How to do the computation to find the number of coins in a chest if there are different denominations?How to find the length of an iron bar when it is given as a function of its size but some constants are unknown?How to find the work made by a soccer player in a parabolic trajectory when the unknowns are the launch angle and the initial speed?How to find the angle in a protein which is inside of a triangle which appears inscribed in a circle?
$begingroup$
I am confused on how to find the answer for this problem. So far what I believe would apply is the triangle inequality but I'm not sure on how to use it.
The figure $ABC$ is a triangle so as $BDC$. It is known that the
length of $AB = 8$ inches and $angle BAD = 2,angle BCD$ and
$angle,DBC = 3 angle BCD$. Find the smallest whole number that $BD$
can attain.
The alternatives given in my book are:
$beginarrayll
1.&7,textrminches\
2.&4,textrminches\
3.&8,textrminches\
4.&5,textrminches\
5.&6,textrminches\
endarray$
So far the only thing I could come up with was to "guess" it might be $4$ since, $angle BDA = 4omega$ could it be that since $BD$ is opposing $2omega$ hence that side might be $4$ inches. But that's how far I went. Needless to say that I'm unsure if that's a right way to go. Can somebody help me with this question?. Please try to include some drawing or sketch of the situation as I'd like to know what can I do to solve this problem relying mostly in geometry?.
algebra-precalculus euclidean-geometry
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am confused on how to find the answer for this problem. So far what I believe would apply is the triangle inequality but I'm not sure on how to use it.
The figure $ABC$ is a triangle so as $BDC$. It is known that the
length of $AB = 8$ inches and $angle BAD = 2,angle BCD$ and
$angle,DBC = 3 angle BCD$. Find the smallest whole number that $BD$
can attain.
The alternatives given in my book are:
$beginarrayll
1.&7,textrminches\
2.&4,textrminches\
3.&8,textrminches\
4.&5,textrminches\
5.&6,textrminches\
endarray$
So far the only thing I could come up with was to "guess" it might be $4$ since, $angle BDA = 4omega$ could it be that since $BD$ is opposing $2omega$ hence that side might be $4$ inches. But that's how far I went. Needless to say that I'm unsure if that's a right way to go. Can somebody help me with this question?. Please try to include some drawing or sketch of the situation as I'd like to know what can I do to solve this problem relying mostly in geometry?.
algebra-precalculus euclidean-geometry
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
BD=4 creates a degenerate triangle.
$endgroup$
– Doug M
Mar 22 at 4:34
$begingroup$
@Doug M Sorry but why would it cause it to be a degenerate triangle?. What do you mean?
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 2:40
$begingroup$
@DougM I forgot some theoretical aspects of the triangular inequality but I think you were referring that when one side is equal to the sum of the other two will produce a straight line, hence no area and no triangle. Did you meant this?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:21
$begingroup$
Consider the law of Sines. $frac 8sin 4omega = frac 4sin 2omega implies frac sin 4omegasin 2omega = 2$ which is only true at the limit as $omega$ approaches $0.$
$endgroup$
– Doug M
Mar 23 at 6:49
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I am confused on how to find the answer for this problem. So far what I believe would apply is the triangle inequality but I'm not sure on how to use it.
The figure $ABC$ is a triangle so as $BDC$. It is known that the
length of $AB = 8$ inches and $angle BAD = 2,angle BCD$ and
$angle,DBC = 3 angle BCD$. Find the smallest whole number that $BD$
can attain.
The alternatives given in my book are:
$beginarrayll
1.&7,textrminches\
2.&4,textrminches\
3.&8,textrminches\
4.&5,textrminches\
5.&6,textrminches\
endarray$
So far the only thing I could come up with was to "guess" it might be $4$ since, $angle BDA = 4omega$ could it be that since $BD$ is opposing $2omega$ hence that side might be $4$ inches. But that's how far I went. Needless to say that I'm unsure if that's a right way to go. Can somebody help me with this question?. Please try to include some drawing or sketch of the situation as I'd like to know what can I do to solve this problem relying mostly in geometry?.
algebra-precalculus euclidean-geometry
$endgroup$
I am confused on how to find the answer for this problem. So far what I believe would apply is the triangle inequality but I'm not sure on how to use it.
The figure $ABC$ is a triangle so as $BDC$. It is known that the
length of $AB = 8$ inches and $angle BAD = 2,angle BCD$ and
$angle,DBC = 3 angle BCD$. Find the smallest whole number that $BD$
can attain.
The alternatives given in my book are:
$beginarrayll
1.&7,textrminches\
2.&4,textrminches\
3.&8,textrminches\
4.&5,textrminches\
5.&6,textrminches\
endarray$
So far the only thing I could come up with was to "guess" it might be $4$ since, $angle BDA = 4omega$ could it be that since $BD$ is opposing $2omega$ hence that side might be $4$ inches. But that's how far I went. Needless to say that I'm unsure if that's a right way to go. Can somebody help me with this question?. Please try to include some drawing or sketch of the situation as I'd like to know what can I do to solve this problem relying mostly in geometry?.
algebra-precalculus euclidean-geometry
algebra-precalculus euclidean-geometry
asked Mar 22 at 3:44
Chris Steinbeck BellChris Steinbeck Bell
855315
855315
1
$begingroup$
BD=4 creates a degenerate triangle.
$endgroup$
– Doug M
Mar 22 at 4:34
$begingroup$
@Doug M Sorry but why would it cause it to be a degenerate triangle?. What do you mean?
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 2:40
$begingroup$
@DougM I forgot some theoretical aspects of the triangular inequality but I think you were referring that when one side is equal to the sum of the other two will produce a straight line, hence no area and no triangle. Did you meant this?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:21
$begingroup$
Consider the law of Sines. $frac 8sin 4omega = frac 4sin 2omega implies frac sin 4omegasin 2omega = 2$ which is only true at the limit as $omega$ approaches $0.$
$endgroup$
– Doug M
Mar 23 at 6:49
add a comment |
1
$begingroup$
BD=4 creates a degenerate triangle.
$endgroup$
– Doug M
Mar 22 at 4:34
$begingroup$
@Doug M Sorry but why would it cause it to be a degenerate triangle?. What do you mean?
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 2:40
$begingroup$
@DougM I forgot some theoretical aspects of the triangular inequality but I think you were referring that when one side is equal to the sum of the other two will produce a straight line, hence no area and no triangle. Did you meant this?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:21
$begingroup$
Consider the law of Sines. $frac 8sin 4omega = frac 4sin 2omega implies frac sin 4omegasin 2omega = 2$ which is only true at the limit as $omega$ approaches $0.$
$endgroup$
– Doug M
Mar 23 at 6:49
1
1
$begingroup$
BD=4 creates a degenerate triangle.
$endgroup$
– Doug M
Mar 22 at 4:34
$begingroup$
BD=4 creates a degenerate triangle.
$endgroup$
– Doug M
Mar 22 at 4:34
$begingroup$
@Doug M Sorry but why would it cause it to be a degenerate triangle?. What do you mean?
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 2:40
$begingroup$
@Doug M Sorry but why would it cause it to be a degenerate triangle?. What do you mean?
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 2:40
$begingroup$
@DougM I forgot some theoretical aspects of the triangular inequality but I think you were referring that when one side is equal to the sum of the other two will produce a straight line, hence no area and no triangle. Did you meant this?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:21
$begingroup$
@DougM I forgot some theoretical aspects of the triangular inequality but I think you were referring that when one side is equal to the sum of the other two will produce a straight line, hence no area and no triangle. Did you meant this?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:21
$begingroup$
Consider the law of Sines. $frac 8sin 4omega = frac 4sin 2omega implies frac sin 4omegasin 2omega = 2$ which is only true at the limit as $omega$ approaches $0.$
$endgroup$
– Doug M
Mar 23 at 6:49
$begingroup$
Consider the law of Sines. $frac 8sin 4omega = frac 4sin 2omega implies frac sin 4omegasin 2omega = 2$ which is only true at the limit as $omega$ approaches $0.$
$endgroup$
– Doug M
Mar 23 at 6:49
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
A possible path without trigonometry.
EDIT Added explicitely the angles in the diagram, as required in comments.
- Draw line $BE$ so that $angle EBC = angle ACB $.
$triangle EBC$ is isoceles (why?); $triangle BDE$ is isosceles (why?); $triangle ABE$ is isosceles (why?)
Now use triangular inequality on $triangle BDE$, to get $2BD > 8$.
EDIT Since $triangle ABE$ is isosceles, $angle AEB cong angle EAB < 90°$, whereas one of the two between $angle BDA$ and $angle BDE$ is greater than or equal to $90°$. Since in any triangle the side opposite to the greater angle is greater, we can state either that $BD < BE$ or that $BD < AB$. So $BD< 8$.
EDIT (Thanks to Lubin for pointing this out in comment)
Once the fact that $4<BD<8$ has been proven, one should also check whether an integer solution between $4$ and $8$ does exist for $BD$. I will try to show, then, that in fact $BD = 5$ is a valid solution. Consider the Figure below.
Start at point $D$ and draw a circle $gamma_1$ centered in $D$ and with radius $5$; draw then a diameter of $gamma_1$, and let $E$ be one of its endpoints. Draw a circle $gamma_2$ centered in $E$ having radius $8$, which intersects $gamma_1$ in $B$, and the line $DE$ (at the opposite side of $D$) in $C$. Finally draw circle $gamma_3$ of radius $8$, centered in $B$. This intersects line $DE$ in two points. One is $E$; call the other one $A$. The triangle $triangle ABC$ satisfies the requirements, with $BD = 5$, as desired.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Okay I found two of the isosceles triangles you mentioned, however I'm still stuck at how to use the triangular inequality on $triangle BDE$. Because although $BE=8$ what's the value of $DE$?. Upon looking again I figured that $DE=BE$ since it is isoceles. But the thing is triangular inequality would be established as $BD+BDleq 8$ then I searched in other sources and found that when one side is equal to the sum of the other two would yield a degenerate triangle, hence that would be $BD<4$ but stated this way I can't find a way to find the minimum other than zero or one?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:09
$begingroup$
I might be lacking in understanding of triangle inequality or perhaps you did something I forgot to account for?. Can you help me with some theory or explain more what's happening?. Maybe you can include angles in the drawing because I struggled a bit to identify where were the isosceles you mentined.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:11
1
$begingroup$
I like this better than my answer, but do you know that there is a case where $BD$ has length $5$? I think you ought to check that there even is an integral value for $BD$.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 17:44
1
$begingroup$
I also like your construction of a case where $BD=5$ ! Really nice.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 22:22
1
$begingroup$
@ChrisSteinbeckBell for $BD< 8$ consider using triangle inequality on $triangle ABD$, for example (as a matter of fact I did not show this explicitly, being a direct consequence of the hypothesis; but I probably should have). I use Geogebra for the figures :)
$endgroup$
– Matteo
Mar 23 at 23:12
|
show 12 more comments
$begingroup$
Since $angle ADB=4omega$, Law of Sines tells you that the length of $BD$ is $frac8sin(2omega)sin(4omega)$. Then, since $sin(2alpha)<2sinalpha$ for all acute angles $alpha$, the fraction is always greater than $4$, whereas for $omega=29^circ$, $angle ADB=116^circ$, and Law of Sines gives the length of $BD$ to be about $7.54$in. This length clearly varies continuously with $omega$ in the range $0<omega<30^circ$, so there are integer values for the length of $5,6,7$in. Your choice then is #4, $5$ inches.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I reached the part where you established $BD= frac8sin 2omegasin 4 omega$ But the rest is where I got stuck. I want to understand your answer but I don't know where the inequality $sin 2alpha < 2 sin alpha$ comes from?. If I use trigonometry simplification the only thing I could come up with was $frac4cos 2omega=BD$. The angles omega = 29^circ and angle ADB=116^circ where do you got them? How can I get them too?. The range you given between $0<omega<30^circ$ where did you obtained?. I'd really hope you can explain to me these questions because I'm lost.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:19
$begingroup$
I’m sure you see, @ChrisSteinbeckBell, that $angle ABD$ is $180^circ-6omega$. Since this has to be positive, $6omega<180^circ$. The inequality $sin2alpha<2sinalpha$ comes from the double-angle formula $sin2alpha=2sinalphacosalpha$. I merely chose $29^circ$ as an angle close to the “forbidden” angle $30^circ$, because when $omega=30^circ$, you get a collapsed picture, where $BD$ coincides with $BA$, in other words, has length $8$in. I just wanted to get a good idea of the range of the function $omegamapsto$ length of $BD$.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 17:38
$begingroup$
@Lubin, Since you defenitely are much more expert than me, I would really appreciate if you could have a look at my edit and see if what I added could be considered a valid demonstration of the existence of a solution $overlineBD = 5$.
$endgroup$
– Matteo
Mar 23 at 18:28
$begingroup$
@Lubin. Thanks I understood how you obtained $180^circ > omega$. But the other part where you get the inequality is where I'm still confused. I know the double angle formula, the point where I don't understand is why $sin 2 alpha$ has to be lesser than $2 sinalpha$?. I mean double angle is an equality how is it transformed into an inequality?. I want to understand this part. Is there anything in the picture that leads me to this statement?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 23:17
1
$begingroup$
@Lubin I believe that the result of $textrm7.54 in$ comes from inserting $omega=29^circ$ in the law of sines. To which it does in WolframAlpha I'd like to compliment your answer as you did to Matteo's because its a more analytic one.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 23:17
|
show 2 more comments
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
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oldest
votes
$begingroup$
A possible path without trigonometry.
EDIT Added explicitely the angles in the diagram, as required in comments.
- Draw line $BE$ so that $angle EBC = angle ACB $.
$triangle EBC$ is isoceles (why?); $triangle BDE$ is isosceles (why?); $triangle ABE$ is isosceles (why?)
Now use triangular inequality on $triangle BDE$, to get $2BD > 8$.
EDIT Since $triangle ABE$ is isosceles, $angle AEB cong angle EAB < 90°$, whereas one of the two between $angle BDA$ and $angle BDE$ is greater than or equal to $90°$. Since in any triangle the side opposite to the greater angle is greater, we can state either that $BD < BE$ or that $BD < AB$. So $BD< 8$.
EDIT (Thanks to Lubin for pointing this out in comment)
Once the fact that $4<BD<8$ has been proven, one should also check whether an integer solution between $4$ and $8$ does exist for $BD$. I will try to show, then, that in fact $BD = 5$ is a valid solution. Consider the Figure below.
Start at point $D$ and draw a circle $gamma_1$ centered in $D$ and with radius $5$; draw then a diameter of $gamma_1$, and let $E$ be one of its endpoints. Draw a circle $gamma_2$ centered in $E$ having radius $8$, which intersects $gamma_1$ in $B$, and the line $DE$ (at the opposite side of $D$) in $C$. Finally draw circle $gamma_3$ of radius $8$, centered in $B$. This intersects line $DE$ in two points. One is $E$; call the other one $A$. The triangle $triangle ABC$ satisfies the requirements, with $BD = 5$, as desired.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Okay I found two of the isosceles triangles you mentioned, however I'm still stuck at how to use the triangular inequality on $triangle BDE$. Because although $BE=8$ what's the value of $DE$?. Upon looking again I figured that $DE=BE$ since it is isoceles. But the thing is triangular inequality would be established as $BD+BDleq 8$ then I searched in other sources and found that when one side is equal to the sum of the other two would yield a degenerate triangle, hence that would be $BD<4$ but stated this way I can't find a way to find the minimum other than zero or one?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:09
$begingroup$
I might be lacking in understanding of triangle inequality or perhaps you did something I forgot to account for?. Can you help me with some theory or explain more what's happening?. Maybe you can include angles in the drawing because I struggled a bit to identify where were the isosceles you mentined.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:11
1
$begingroup$
I like this better than my answer, but do you know that there is a case where $BD$ has length $5$? I think you ought to check that there even is an integral value for $BD$.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 17:44
1
$begingroup$
I also like your construction of a case where $BD=5$ ! Really nice.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 22:22
1
$begingroup$
@ChrisSteinbeckBell for $BD< 8$ consider using triangle inequality on $triangle ABD$, for example (as a matter of fact I did not show this explicitly, being a direct consequence of the hypothesis; but I probably should have). I use Geogebra for the figures :)
$endgroup$
– Matteo
Mar 23 at 23:12
|
show 12 more comments
$begingroup$
A possible path without trigonometry.
EDIT Added explicitely the angles in the diagram, as required in comments.
- Draw line $BE$ so that $angle EBC = angle ACB $.
$triangle EBC$ is isoceles (why?); $triangle BDE$ is isosceles (why?); $triangle ABE$ is isosceles (why?)
Now use triangular inequality on $triangle BDE$, to get $2BD > 8$.
EDIT Since $triangle ABE$ is isosceles, $angle AEB cong angle EAB < 90°$, whereas one of the two between $angle BDA$ and $angle BDE$ is greater than or equal to $90°$. Since in any triangle the side opposite to the greater angle is greater, we can state either that $BD < BE$ or that $BD < AB$. So $BD< 8$.
EDIT (Thanks to Lubin for pointing this out in comment)
Once the fact that $4<BD<8$ has been proven, one should also check whether an integer solution between $4$ and $8$ does exist for $BD$. I will try to show, then, that in fact $BD = 5$ is a valid solution. Consider the Figure below.
Start at point $D$ and draw a circle $gamma_1$ centered in $D$ and with radius $5$; draw then a diameter of $gamma_1$, and let $E$ be one of its endpoints. Draw a circle $gamma_2$ centered in $E$ having radius $8$, which intersects $gamma_1$ in $B$, and the line $DE$ (at the opposite side of $D$) in $C$. Finally draw circle $gamma_3$ of radius $8$, centered in $B$. This intersects line $DE$ in two points. One is $E$; call the other one $A$. The triangle $triangle ABC$ satisfies the requirements, with $BD = 5$, as desired.
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Okay I found two of the isosceles triangles you mentioned, however I'm still stuck at how to use the triangular inequality on $triangle BDE$. Because although $BE=8$ what's the value of $DE$?. Upon looking again I figured that $DE=BE$ since it is isoceles. But the thing is triangular inequality would be established as $BD+BDleq 8$ then I searched in other sources and found that when one side is equal to the sum of the other two would yield a degenerate triangle, hence that would be $BD<4$ but stated this way I can't find a way to find the minimum other than zero or one?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:09
$begingroup$
I might be lacking in understanding of triangle inequality or perhaps you did something I forgot to account for?. Can you help me with some theory or explain more what's happening?. Maybe you can include angles in the drawing because I struggled a bit to identify where were the isosceles you mentined.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:11
1
$begingroup$
I like this better than my answer, but do you know that there is a case where $BD$ has length $5$? I think you ought to check that there even is an integral value for $BD$.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 17:44
1
$begingroup$
I also like your construction of a case where $BD=5$ ! Really nice.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 22:22
1
$begingroup$
@ChrisSteinbeckBell for $BD< 8$ consider using triangle inequality on $triangle ABD$, for example (as a matter of fact I did not show this explicitly, being a direct consequence of the hypothesis; but I probably should have). I use Geogebra for the figures :)
$endgroup$
– Matteo
Mar 23 at 23:12
|
show 12 more comments
$begingroup$
A possible path without trigonometry.
EDIT Added explicitely the angles in the diagram, as required in comments.
- Draw line $BE$ so that $angle EBC = angle ACB $.
$triangle EBC$ is isoceles (why?); $triangle BDE$ is isosceles (why?); $triangle ABE$ is isosceles (why?)
Now use triangular inequality on $triangle BDE$, to get $2BD > 8$.
EDIT Since $triangle ABE$ is isosceles, $angle AEB cong angle EAB < 90°$, whereas one of the two between $angle BDA$ and $angle BDE$ is greater than or equal to $90°$. Since in any triangle the side opposite to the greater angle is greater, we can state either that $BD < BE$ or that $BD < AB$. So $BD< 8$.
EDIT (Thanks to Lubin for pointing this out in comment)
Once the fact that $4<BD<8$ has been proven, one should also check whether an integer solution between $4$ and $8$ does exist for $BD$. I will try to show, then, that in fact $BD = 5$ is a valid solution. Consider the Figure below.
Start at point $D$ and draw a circle $gamma_1$ centered in $D$ and with radius $5$; draw then a diameter of $gamma_1$, and let $E$ be one of its endpoints. Draw a circle $gamma_2$ centered in $E$ having radius $8$, which intersects $gamma_1$ in $B$, and the line $DE$ (at the opposite side of $D$) in $C$. Finally draw circle $gamma_3$ of radius $8$, centered in $B$. This intersects line $DE$ in two points. One is $E$; call the other one $A$. The triangle $triangle ABC$ satisfies the requirements, with $BD = 5$, as desired.
$endgroup$
A possible path without trigonometry.
EDIT Added explicitely the angles in the diagram, as required in comments.
- Draw line $BE$ so that $angle EBC = angle ACB $.
$triangle EBC$ is isoceles (why?); $triangle BDE$ is isosceles (why?); $triangle ABE$ is isosceles (why?)
Now use triangular inequality on $triangle BDE$, to get $2BD > 8$.
EDIT Since $triangle ABE$ is isosceles, $angle AEB cong angle EAB < 90°$, whereas one of the two between $angle BDA$ and $angle BDE$ is greater than or equal to $90°$. Since in any triangle the side opposite to the greater angle is greater, we can state either that $BD < BE$ or that $BD < AB$. So $BD< 8$.
EDIT (Thanks to Lubin for pointing this out in comment)
Once the fact that $4<BD<8$ has been proven, one should also check whether an integer solution between $4$ and $8$ does exist for $BD$. I will try to show, then, that in fact $BD = 5$ is a valid solution. Consider the Figure below.
Start at point $D$ and draw a circle $gamma_1$ centered in $D$ and with radius $5$; draw then a diameter of $gamma_1$, and let $E$ be one of its endpoints. Draw a circle $gamma_2$ centered in $E$ having radius $8$, which intersects $gamma_1$ in $B$, and the line $DE$ (at the opposite side of $D$) in $C$. Finally draw circle $gamma_3$ of radius $8$, centered in $B$. This intersects line $DE$ in two points. One is $E$; call the other one $A$. The triangle $triangle ABC$ satisfies the requirements, with $BD = 5$, as desired.
edited Mar 24 at 0:37
answered Mar 22 at 12:19
MatteoMatteo
1,302313
1,302313
1
$begingroup$
Okay I found two of the isosceles triangles you mentioned, however I'm still stuck at how to use the triangular inequality on $triangle BDE$. Because although $BE=8$ what's the value of $DE$?. Upon looking again I figured that $DE=BE$ since it is isoceles. But the thing is triangular inequality would be established as $BD+BDleq 8$ then I searched in other sources and found that when one side is equal to the sum of the other two would yield a degenerate triangle, hence that would be $BD<4$ but stated this way I can't find a way to find the minimum other than zero or one?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:09
$begingroup$
I might be lacking in understanding of triangle inequality or perhaps you did something I forgot to account for?. Can you help me with some theory or explain more what's happening?. Maybe you can include angles in the drawing because I struggled a bit to identify where were the isosceles you mentined.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:11
1
$begingroup$
I like this better than my answer, but do you know that there is a case where $BD$ has length $5$? I think you ought to check that there even is an integral value for $BD$.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 17:44
1
$begingroup$
I also like your construction of a case where $BD=5$ ! Really nice.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 22:22
1
$begingroup$
@ChrisSteinbeckBell for $BD< 8$ consider using triangle inequality on $triangle ABD$, for example (as a matter of fact I did not show this explicitly, being a direct consequence of the hypothesis; but I probably should have). I use Geogebra for the figures :)
$endgroup$
– Matteo
Mar 23 at 23:12
|
show 12 more comments
1
$begingroup$
Okay I found two of the isosceles triangles you mentioned, however I'm still stuck at how to use the triangular inequality on $triangle BDE$. Because although $BE=8$ what's the value of $DE$?. Upon looking again I figured that $DE=BE$ since it is isoceles. But the thing is triangular inequality would be established as $BD+BDleq 8$ then I searched in other sources and found that when one side is equal to the sum of the other two would yield a degenerate triangle, hence that would be $BD<4$ but stated this way I can't find a way to find the minimum other than zero or one?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:09
$begingroup$
I might be lacking in understanding of triangle inequality or perhaps you did something I forgot to account for?. Can you help me with some theory or explain more what's happening?. Maybe you can include angles in the drawing because I struggled a bit to identify where were the isosceles you mentined.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:11
1
$begingroup$
I like this better than my answer, but do you know that there is a case where $BD$ has length $5$? I think you ought to check that there even is an integral value for $BD$.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 17:44
1
$begingroup$
I also like your construction of a case where $BD=5$ ! Really nice.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 22:22
1
$begingroup$
@ChrisSteinbeckBell for $BD< 8$ consider using triangle inequality on $triangle ABD$, for example (as a matter of fact I did not show this explicitly, being a direct consequence of the hypothesis; but I probably should have). I use Geogebra for the figures :)
$endgroup$
– Matteo
Mar 23 at 23:12
1
1
$begingroup$
Okay I found two of the isosceles triangles you mentioned, however I'm still stuck at how to use the triangular inequality on $triangle BDE$. Because although $BE=8$ what's the value of $DE$?. Upon looking again I figured that $DE=BE$ since it is isoceles. But the thing is triangular inequality would be established as $BD+BDleq 8$ then I searched in other sources and found that when one side is equal to the sum of the other two would yield a degenerate triangle, hence that would be $BD<4$ but stated this way I can't find a way to find the minimum other than zero or one?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:09
$begingroup$
Okay I found two of the isosceles triangles you mentioned, however I'm still stuck at how to use the triangular inequality on $triangle BDE$. Because although $BE=8$ what's the value of $DE$?. Upon looking again I figured that $DE=BE$ since it is isoceles. But the thing is triangular inequality would be established as $BD+BDleq 8$ then I searched in other sources and found that when one side is equal to the sum of the other two would yield a degenerate triangle, hence that would be $BD<4$ but stated this way I can't find a way to find the minimum other than zero or one?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:09
$begingroup$
I might be lacking in understanding of triangle inequality or perhaps you did something I forgot to account for?. Can you help me with some theory or explain more what's happening?. Maybe you can include angles in the drawing because I struggled a bit to identify where were the isosceles you mentined.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:11
$begingroup$
I might be lacking in understanding of triangle inequality or perhaps you did something I forgot to account for?. Can you help me with some theory or explain more what's happening?. Maybe you can include angles in the drawing because I struggled a bit to identify where were the isosceles you mentined.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:11
1
1
$begingroup$
I like this better than my answer, but do you know that there is a case where $BD$ has length $5$? I think you ought to check that there even is an integral value for $BD$.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 17:44
$begingroup$
I like this better than my answer, but do you know that there is a case where $BD$ has length $5$? I think you ought to check that there even is an integral value for $BD$.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 17:44
1
1
$begingroup$
I also like your construction of a case where $BD=5$ ! Really nice.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 22:22
$begingroup$
I also like your construction of a case where $BD=5$ ! Really nice.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 22:22
1
1
$begingroup$
@ChrisSteinbeckBell for $BD< 8$ consider using triangle inequality on $triangle ABD$, for example (as a matter of fact I did not show this explicitly, being a direct consequence of the hypothesis; but I probably should have). I use Geogebra for the figures :)
$endgroup$
– Matteo
Mar 23 at 23:12
$begingroup$
@ChrisSteinbeckBell for $BD< 8$ consider using triangle inequality on $triangle ABD$, for example (as a matter of fact I did not show this explicitly, being a direct consequence of the hypothesis; but I probably should have). I use Geogebra for the figures :)
$endgroup$
– Matteo
Mar 23 at 23:12
|
show 12 more comments
$begingroup$
Since $angle ADB=4omega$, Law of Sines tells you that the length of $BD$ is $frac8sin(2omega)sin(4omega)$. Then, since $sin(2alpha)<2sinalpha$ for all acute angles $alpha$, the fraction is always greater than $4$, whereas for $omega=29^circ$, $angle ADB=116^circ$, and Law of Sines gives the length of $BD$ to be about $7.54$in. This length clearly varies continuously with $omega$ in the range $0<omega<30^circ$, so there are integer values for the length of $5,6,7$in. Your choice then is #4, $5$ inches.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I reached the part where you established $BD= frac8sin 2omegasin 4 omega$ But the rest is where I got stuck. I want to understand your answer but I don't know where the inequality $sin 2alpha < 2 sin alpha$ comes from?. If I use trigonometry simplification the only thing I could come up with was $frac4cos 2omega=BD$. The angles omega = 29^circ and angle ADB=116^circ where do you got them? How can I get them too?. The range you given between $0<omega<30^circ$ where did you obtained?. I'd really hope you can explain to me these questions because I'm lost.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:19
$begingroup$
I’m sure you see, @ChrisSteinbeckBell, that $angle ABD$ is $180^circ-6omega$. Since this has to be positive, $6omega<180^circ$. The inequality $sin2alpha<2sinalpha$ comes from the double-angle formula $sin2alpha=2sinalphacosalpha$. I merely chose $29^circ$ as an angle close to the “forbidden” angle $30^circ$, because when $omega=30^circ$, you get a collapsed picture, where $BD$ coincides with $BA$, in other words, has length $8$in. I just wanted to get a good idea of the range of the function $omegamapsto$ length of $BD$.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 17:38
$begingroup$
@Lubin, Since you defenitely are much more expert than me, I would really appreciate if you could have a look at my edit and see if what I added could be considered a valid demonstration of the existence of a solution $overlineBD = 5$.
$endgroup$
– Matteo
Mar 23 at 18:28
$begingroup$
@Lubin. Thanks I understood how you obtained $180^circ > omega$. But the other part where you get the inequality is where I'm still confused. I know the double angle formula, the point where I don't understand is why $sin 2 alpha$ has to be lesser than $2 sinalpha$?. I mean double angle is an equality how is it transformed into an inequality?. I want to understand this part. Is there anything in the picture that leads me to this statement?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 23:17
1
$begingroup$
@Lubin I believe that the result of $textrm7.54 in$ comes from inserting $omega=29^circ$ in the law of sines. To which it does in WolframAlpha I'd like to compliment your answer as you did to Matteo's because its a more analytic one.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 23:17
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Since $angle ADB=4omega$, Law of Sines tells you that the length of $BD$ is $frac8sin(2omega)sin(4omega)$. Then, since $sin(2alpha)<2sinalpha$ for all acute angles $alpha$, the fraction is always greater than $4$, whereas for $omega=29^circ$, $angle ADB=116^circ$, and Law of Sines gives the length of $BD$ to be about $7.54$in. This length clearly varies continuously with $omega$ in the range $0<omega<30^circ$, so there are integer values for the length of $5,6,7$in. Your choice then is #4, $5$ inches.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
I reached the part where you established $BD= frac8sin 2omegasin 4 omega$ But the rest is where I got stuck. I want to understand your answer but I don't know where the inequality $sin 2alpha < 2 sin alpha$ comes from?. If I use trigonometry simplification the only thing I could come up with was $frac4cos 2omega=BD$. The angles omega = 29^circ and angle ADB=116^circ where do you got them? How can I get them too?. The range you given between $0<omega<30^circ$ where did you obtained?. I'd really hope you can explain to me these questions because I'm lost.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:19
$begingroup$
I’m sure you see, @ChrisSteinbeckBell, that $angle ABD$ is $180^circ-6omega$. Since this has to be positive, $6omega<180^circ$. The inequality $sin2alpha<2sinalpha$ comes from the double-angle formula $sin2alpha=2sinalphacosalpha$. I merely chose $29^circ$ as an angle close to the “forbidden” angle $30^circ$, because when $omega=30^circ$, you get a collapsed picture, where $BD$ coincides with $BA$, in other words, has length $8$in. I just wanted to get a good idea of the range of the function $omegamapsto$ length of $BD$.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 17:38
$begingroup$
@Lubin, Since you defenitely are much more expert than me, I would really appreciate if you could have a look at my edit and see if what I added could be considered a valid demonstration of the existence of a solution $overlineBD = 5$.
$endgroup$
– Matteo
Mar 23 at 18:28
$begingroup$
@Lubin. Thanks I understood how you obtained $180^circ > omega$. But the other part where you get the inequality is where I'm still confused. I know the double angle formula, the point where I don't understand is why $sin 2 alpha$ has to be lesser than $2 sinalpha$?. I mean double angle is an equality how is it transformed into an inequality?. I want to understand this part. Is there anything in the picture that leads me to this statement?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 23:17
1
$begingroup$
@Lubin I believe that the result of $textrm7.54 in$ comes from inserting $omega=29^circ$ in the law of sines. To which it does in WolframAlpha I'd like to compliment your answer as you did to Matteo's because its a more analytic one.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 23:17
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
Since $angle ADB=4omega$, Law of Sines tells you that the length of $BD$ is $frac8sin(2omega)sin(4omega)$. Then, since $sin(2alpha)<2sinalpha$ for all acute angles $alpha$, the fraction is always greater than $4$, whereas for $omega=29^circ$, $angle ADB=116^circ$, and Law of Sines gives the length of $BD$ to be about $7.54$in. This length clearly varies continuously with $omega$ in the range $0<omega<30^circ$, so there are integer values for the length of $5,6,7$in. Your choice then is #4, $5$ inches.
$endgroup$
Since $angle ADB=4omega$, Law of Sines tells you that the length of $BD$ is $frac8sin(2omega)sin(4omega)$. Then, since $sin(2alpha)<2sinalpha$ for all acute angles $alpha$, the fraction is always greater than $4$, whereas for $omega=29^circ$, $angle ADB=116^circ$, and Law of Sines gives the length of $BD$ to be about $7.54$in. This length clearly varies continuously with $omega$ in the range $0<omega<30^circ$, so there are integer values for the length of $5,6,7$in. Your choice then is #4, $5$ inches.
answered Mar 22 at 4:57
LubinLubin
45.5k44688
45.5k44688
$begingroup$
I reached the part where you established $BD= frac8sin 2omegasin 4 omega$ But the rest is where I got stuck. I want to understand your answer but I don't know where the inequality $sin 2alpha < 2 sin alpha$ comes from?. If I use trigonometry simplification the only thing I could come up with was $frac4cos 2omega=BD$. The angles omega = 29^circ and angle ADB=116^circ where do you got them? How can I get them too?. The range you given between $0<omega<30^circ$ where did you obtained?. I'd really hope you can explain to me these questions because I'm lost.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:19
$begingroup$
I’m sure you see, @ChrisSteinbeckBell, that $angle ABD$ is $180^circ-6omega$. Since this has to be positive, $6omega<180^circ$. The inequality $sin2alpha<2sinalpha$ comes from the double-angle formula $sin2alpha=2sinalphacosalpha$. I merely chose $29^circ$ as an angle close to the “forbidden” angle $30^circ$, because when $omega=30^circ$, you get a collapsed picture, where $BD$ coincides with $BA$, in other words, has length $8$in. I just wanted to get a good idea of the range of the function $omegamapsto$ length of $BD$.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 17:38
$begingroup$
@Lubin, Since you defenitely are much more expert than me, I would really appreciate if you could have a look at my edit and see if what I added could be considered a valid demonstration of the existence of a solution $overlineBD = 5$.
$endgroup$
– Matteo
Mar 23 at 18:28
$begingroup$
@Lubin. Thanks I understood how you obtained $180^circ > omega$. But the other part where you get the inequality is where I'm still confused. I know the double angle formula, the point where I don't understand is why $sin 2 alpha$ has to be lesser than $2 sinalpha$?. I mean double angle is an equality how is it transformed into an inequality?. I want to understand this part. Is there anything in the picture that leads me to this statement?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 23:17
1
$begingroup$
@Lubin I believe that the result of $textrm7.54 in$ comes from inserting $omega=29^circ$ in the law of sines. To which it does in WolframAlpha I'd like to compliment your answer as you did to Matteo's because its a more analytic one.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 23:17
|
show 2 more comments
$begingroup$
I reached the part where you established $BD= frac8sin 2omegasin 4 omega$ But the rest is where I got stuck. I want to understand your answer but I don't know where the inequality $sin 2alpha < 2 sin alpha$ comes from?. If I use trigonometry simplification the only thing I could come up with was $frac4cos 2omega=BD$. The angles omega = 29^circ and angle ADB=116^circ where do you got them? How can I get them too?. The range you given between $0<omega<30^circ$ where did you obtained?. I'd really hope you can explain to me these questions because I'm lost.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:19
$begingroup$
I’m sure you see, @ChrisSteinbeckBell, that $angle ABD$ is $180^circ-6omega$. Since this has to be positive, $6omega<180^circ$. The inequality $sin2alpha<2sinalpha$ comes from the double-angle formula $sin2alpha=2sinalphacosalpha$. I merely chose $29^circ$ as an angle close to the “forbidden” angle $30^circ$, because when $omega=30^circ$, you get a collapsed picture, where $BD$ coincides with $BA$, in other words, has length $8$in. I just wanted to get a good idea of the range of the function $omegamapsto$ length of $BD$.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 17:38
$begingroup$
@Lubin, Since you defenitely are much more expert than me, I would really appreciate if you could have a look at my edit and see if what I added could be considered a valid demonstration of the existence of a solution $overlineBD = 5$.
$endgroup$
– Matteo
Mar 23 at 18:28
$begingroup$
@Lubin. Thanks I understood how you obtained $180^circ > omega$. But the other part where you get the inequality is where I'm still confused. I know the double angle formula, the point where I don't understand is why $sin 2 alpha$ has to be lesser than $2 sinalpha$?. I mean double angle is an equality how is it transformed into an inequality?. I want to understand this part. Is there anything in the picture that leads me to this statement?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 23:17
1
$begingroup$
@Lubin I believe that the result of $textrm7.54 in$ comes from inserting $omega=29^circ$ in the law of sines. To which it does in WolframAlpha I'd like to compliment your answer as you did to Matteo's because its a more analytic one.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 23:17
$begingroup$
I reached the part where you established $BD= frac8sin 2omegasin 4 omega$ But the rest is where I got stuck. I want to understand your answer but I don't know where the inequality $sin 2alpha < 2 sin alpha$ comes from?. If I use trigonometry simplification the only thing I could come up with was $frac4cos 2omega=BD$. The angles omega = 29^circ and angle ADB=116^circ where do you got them? How can I get them too?. The range you given between $0<omega<30^circ$ where did you obtained?. I'd really hope you can explain to me these questions because I'm lost.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:19
$begingroup$
I reached the part where you established $BD= frac8sin 2omegasin 4 omega$ But the rest is where I got stuck. I want to understand your answer but I don't know where the inequality $sin 2alpha < 2 sin alpha$ comes from?. If I use trigonometry simplification the only thing I could come up with was $frac4cos 2omega=BD$. The angles omega = 29^circ and angle ADB=116^circ where do you got them? How can I get them too?. The range you given between $0<omega<30^circ$ where did you obtained?. I'd really hope you can explain to me these questions because I'm lost.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:19
$begingroup$
I’m sure you see, @ChrisSteinbeckBell, that $angle ABD$ is $180^circ-6omega$. Since this has to be positive, $6omega<180^circ$. The inequality $sin2alpha<2sinalpha$ comes from the double-angle formula $sin2alpha=2sinalphacosalpha$. I merely chose $29^circ$ as an angle close to the “forbidden” angle $30^circ$, because when $omega=30^circ$, you get a collapsed picture, where $BD$ coincides with $BA$, in other words, has length $8$in. I just wanted to get a good idea of the range of the function $omegamapsto$ length of $BD$.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 17:38
$begingroup$
I’m sure you see, @ChrisSteinbeckBell, that $angle ABD$ is $180^circ-6omega$. Since this has to be positive, $6omega<180^circ$. The inequality $sin2alpha<2sinalpha$ comes from the double-angle formula $sin2alpha=2sinalphacosalpha$. I merely chose $29^circ$ as an angle close to the “forbidden” angle $30^circ$, because when $omega=30^circ$, you get a collapsed picture, where $BD$ coincides with $BA$, in other words, has length $8$in. I just wanted to get a good idea of the range of the function $omegamapsto$ length of $BD$.
$endgroup$
– Lubin
Mar 23 at 17:38
$begingroup$
@Lubin, Since you defenitely are much more expert than me, I would really appreciate if you could have a look at my edit and see if what I added could be considered a valid demonstration of the existence of a solution $overlineBD = 5$.
$endgroup$
– Matteo
Mar 23 at 18:28
$begingroup$
@Lubin, Since you defenitely are much more expert than me, I would really appreciate if you could have a look at my edit and see if what I added could be considered a valid demonstration of the existence of a solution $overlineBD = 5$.
$endgroup$
– Matteo
Mar 23 at 18:28
$begingroup$
@Lubin. Thanks I understood how you obtained $180^circ > omega$. But the other part where you get the inequality is where I'm still confused. I know the double angle formula, the point where I don't understand is why $sin 2 alpha$ has to be lesser than $2 sinalpha$?. I mean double angle is an equality how is it transformed into an inequality?. I want to understand this part. Is there anything in the picture that leads me to this statement?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 23:17
$begingroup$
@Lubin. Thanks I understood how you obtained $180^circ > omega$. But the other part where you get the inequality is where I'm still confused. I know the double angle formula, the point where I don't understand is why $sin 2 alpha$ has to be lesser than $2 sinalpha$?. I mean double angle is an equality how is it transformed into an inequality?. I want to understand this part. Is there anything in the picture that leads me to this statement?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 23:17
1
1
$begingroup$
@Lubin I believe that the result of $textrm7.54 in$ comes from inserting $omega=29^circ$ in the law of sines. To which it does in WolframAlpha I'd like to compliment your answer as you did to Matteo's because its a more analytic one.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 23:17
$begingroup$
@Lubin I believe that the result of $textrm7.54 in$ comes from inserting $omega=29^circ$ in the law of sines. To which it does in WolframAlpha I'd like to compliment your answer as you did to Matteo's because its a more analytic one.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 23:17
|
show 2 more comments
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$begingroup$
BD=4 creates a degenerate triangle.
$endgroup$
– Doug M
Mar 22 at 4:34
$begingroup$
@Doug M Sorry but why would it cause it to be a degenerate triangle?. What do you mean?
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 2:40
$begingroup$
@DougM I forgot some theoretical aspects of the triangular inequality but I think you were referring that when one side is equal to the sum of the other two will produce a straight line, hence no area and no triangle. Did you meant this?.
$endgroup$
– Chris Steinbeck Bell
Mar 23 at 3:21
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Consider the law of Sines. $frac 8sin 4omega = frac 4sin 2omega implies frac sin 4omegasin 2omega = 2$ which is only true at the limit as $omega$ approaches $0.$
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– Doug M
Mar 23 at 6:49