Why doesn't the chatan sign the ketubah? The Next CEO of Stack OverflowParashat Shemini + ParaPost-conversion ketubahHow much is an ashkenazi kesuba todayIs there someone who can explain a rare ketubah written for the deaf?Convert in KetubahWitnesses and the KetubahWhy do the witnesses who sign the Ketubah sign it before the chuppah?Must a ketubah be rewritten if, many years later, the date is discovered to be wrong?Purpose of “tana'im” todayWhy does the Chatan arrive first to the Chuppa?Is it required to read the Ketubah under the Chuppah?
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Why doesn't the chatan sign the ketubah?
The Next CEO of Stack OverflowParashat Shemini + ParaPost-conversion ketubahHow much is an ashkenazi kesuba todayIs there someone who can explain a rare ketubah written for the deaf?Convert in KetubahWitnesses and the KetubahWhy do the witnesses who sign the Ketubah sign it before the chuppah?Must a ketubah be rewritten if, many years later, the date is discovered to be wrong?Purpose of “tana'im” todayWhy does the Chatan arrive first to the Chuppa?Is it required to read the Ketubah under the Chuppah?
Perhaps, I may not completely understand the purpose of the ketubah in terms of it being a halachic legal document or a "shtar*. Aren't all legal documents supposed to be signed by the person drafting or responsible for its rules?
My understanding - if I draft a promisory note to pay someone a certain amount by a certain time, I gather that I would have to sign it, right?
The ketubah has many details on what the groom is obligated to compensate the bride. Shouldn't he be required to sign it?
wedding ketubah
asked Mar 18 at 18:49
DanFDanF
35.1k528130
add a comment |
Perhaps, I may not completely understand the purpose of the ketubah in terms of it being a halachic legal document or a "shtar*. Aren't all legal documents supposed to be signed by the person drafting or responsible for its rules?
My understanding - if I draft a promisory note to pay someone a certain amount by a certain time, I gather that I would have to sign it, right?
The ketubah has many details on what the groom is obligated to compensate the bride. Shouldn't he be required to sign it?
wedding ketubah
asked Mar 18 at 18:49
DanFDanF
35.1k528130
3
What's wrong with witnesses signing that he agreed to the debt?
– Double AA♦
Mar 18 at 19:07
Both I and my wife signed on my Ketubah, although I realize we are the minority. (Weird family minhag.)
– רבות מחשבות
Mar 18 at 19:15
@רבותמחשבות same. We had a Hebrew/English one though and we only signed the English part
– alicht
Mar 18 at 19:23
1
In Israel it is common for the chatan to also sign it. The text added (my translation) "Also I, the chatan, affirm the above" followed by his signature
– theblitz
Mar 18 at 23:44
add a comment |
Perhaps, I may not completely understand the purpose of the ketubah in terms of it being a halachic legal document or a "shtar*. Aren't all legal documents supposed to be signed by the person drafting or responsible for its rules?
My understanding - if I draft a promisory note to pay someone a certain amount by a certain time, I gather that I would have to sign it, right?
The ketubah has many details on what the groom is obligated to compensate the bride. Shouldn't he be required to sign it?
wedding ketubah
asked Mar 18 at 18:49
DanFDanF
35.1k528130
Perhaps, I may not completely understand the purpose of the ketubah in terms of it being a halachic legal document or a "shtar*. Aren't all legal documents supposed to be signed by the person drafting or responsible for its rules?
My understanding - if I draft a promisory note to pay someone a certain amount by a certain time, I gather that I would have to sign it, right?
The ketubah has many details on what the groom is obligated to compensate the bride. Shouldn't he be required to sign it?
wedding ketubah
wedding ketubah
asked Mar 18 at 18:49
DanFDanF
35.1k528130
asked Mar 18 at 18:49
DanFDanF
35.1k528130
asked Mar 18 at 18:49
DanFDanF
35.1k528130
asked Mar 18 at 18:49
DanFDanF
35.1k528130
asked Mar 18 at 18:49
DanFDanF
35.1k528130
35.1k528130
3
What's wrong with witnesses signing that he agreed to the debt?
– Double AA♦
Mar 18 at 19:07
Both I and my wife signed on my Ketubah, although I realize we are the minority. (Weird family minhag.)
– רבות מחשבות
Mar 18 at 19:15
@רבותמחשבות same. We had a Hebrew/English one though and we only signed the English part
– alicht
Mar 18 at 19:23
1
In Israel it is common for the chatan to also sign it. The text added (my translation) "Also I, the chatan, affirm the above" followed by his signature
– theblitz
Mar 18 at 23:44
add a comment |
3
What's wrong with witnesses signing that he agreed to the debt?
– Double AA♦
Mar 18 at 19:07
Both I and my wife signed on my Ketubah, although I realize we are the minority. (Weird family minhag.)
– רבות מחשבות
Mar 18 at 19:15
@רבותמחשבות same. We had a Hebrew/English one though and we only signed the English part
– alicht
Mar 18 at 19:23
1
In Israel it is common for the chatan to also sign it. The text added (my translation) "Also I, the chatan, affirm the above" followed by his signature
– theblitz
Mar 18 at 23:44
3
3
What's wrong with witnesses signing that he agreed to the debt?
– Double AA♦
Mar 18 at 19:07
What's wrong with witnesses signing that he agreed to the debt?
– Double AA♦
Mar 18 at 19:07
Both I and my wife signed on my Ketubah, although I realize we are the minority. (Weird family minhag.)
– רבות מחשבות
Mar 18 at 19:15
Both I and my wife signed on my Ketubah, although I realize we are the minority. (Weird family minhag.)
– רבות מחשבות
Mar 18 at 19:15
@רבותמחשבות same. We had a Hebrew/English one though and we only signed the English part
– alicht
Mar 18 at 19:23
@רבותמחשבות same. We had a Hebrew/English one though and we only signed the English part
– alicht
Mar 18 at 19:23
1
1
In Israel it is common for the chatan to also sign it. The text added (my translation) "Also I, the chatan, affirm the above" followed by his signature
– theblitz
Mar 18 at 23:44
In Israel it is common for the chatan to also sign it. The text added (my translation) "Also I, the chatan, affirm the above" followed by his signature
– theblitz
Mar 18 at 23:44
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
The kesuba serves as documentary testimony that the groom accepted upon himself the responsibilities entailed therein. It is not an I.O.U., but it is the documentation of his acceptance. Consider the following text within the kesuba (this is taken from the RCA's version):
ב ______ בשבת ______ לחדש ______ שנת חמשת אלפים ושבע מאות ______ לבריאת העולם למנין שאנו מנין כאן ______ איך החתן ______ בר ______ אמר לא להדא ______ בת ______ הוי לי לאנתו כדת משה וישראל ואנא אפלח ואוקיר ואיזון ואפרנס יתיכי ליכי כהלכות גוברין יהודאין דפלחין ומוקרין וזנין ומפרנסין לנשיהון
(Translation of relevant line) The groom ______ said to _______ "Be my wife ... and I will support, and honor, and nourish, and sustain you according to the rules of Jewish husbands that support, honor, nourish, and sustain their wives..."
The document is testimony that he said these things (or, more pedantically in our weddings, accepted to have it written that he had said these things) in the presence of witnesses. The witnesses then sign it, and it is the authority of the witness testimony which creates the authority of the document.
answered Mar 18 at 19:25
Y e zY e z
46k374207
Ah! That makes a lot of sense. It also explains why remiza (signing) works as well.
– DanF
Mar 18 at 19:27
add a comment |
Certain communities have the Chatan Sign the Ketubah. This was the custom in Egypt. Source to come later.
I am not a Rabbi, nor a halakhic expert on this matter. But this is what would make sense to me:
We are less interested in a signature of the Hatan, because it isn't hard for someone to say "that's not my signature." But rather the power of the ketubah lies in the witnesses who saw the Chatan agree to the terms. You would bring these witnesses to the beit din, rather than bringing the ketubah with comparisons of your husband's signature. However, I see no reason why a chatan couldn't sign a ketubah, and this is probably how it was able to be done in places such as Egypt.
answered Mar 18 at 18:50
AaronAaron
5,84711537
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
The kesuba serves as documentary testimony that the groom accepted upon himself the responsibilities entailed therein. It is not an I.O.U., but it is the documentation of his acceptance. Consider the following text within the kesuba (this is taken from the RCA's version):
ב ______ בשבת ______ לחדש ______ שנת חמשת אלפים ושבע מאות ______ לבריאת העולם למנין שאנו מנין כאן ______ איך החתן ______ בר ______ אמר לא להדא ______ בת ______ הוי לי לאנתו כדת משה וישראל ואנא אפלח ואוקיר ואיזון ואפרנס יתיכי ליכי כהלכות גוברין יהודאין דפלחין ומוקרין וזנין ומפרנסין לנשיהון
(Translation of relevant line) The groom ______ said to _______ "Be my wife ... and I will support, and honor, and nourish, and sustain you according to the rules of Jewish husbands that support, honor, nourish, and sustain their wives..."
The document is testimony that he said these things (or, more pedantically in our weddings, accepted to have it written that he had said these things) in the presence of witnesses. The witnesses then sign it, and it is the authority of the witness testimony which creates the authority of the document.
answered Mar 18 at 19:25
Y e zY e z
46k374207
Ah! That makes a lot of sense. It also explains why remiza (signing) works as well.
– DanF
Mar 18 at 19:27
add a comment |
The kesuba serves as documentary testimony that the groom accepted upon himself the responsibilities entailed therein. It is not an I.O.U., but it is the documentation of his acceptance. Consider the following text within the kesuba (this is taken from the RCA's version):
ב ______ בשבת ______ לחדש ______ שנת חמשת אלפים ושבע מאות ______ לבריאת העולם למנין שאנו מנין כאן ______ איך החתן ______ בר ______ אמר לא להדא ______ בת ______ הוי לי לאנתו כדת משה וישראל ואנא אפלח ואוקיר ואיזון ואפרנס יתיכי ליכי כהלכות גוברין יהודאין דפלחין ומוקרין וזנין ומפרנסין לנשיהון
(Translation of relevant line) The groom ______ said to _______ "Be my wife ... and I will support, and honor, and nourish, and sustain you according to the rules of Jewish husbands that support, honor, nourish, and sustain their wives..."
The document is testimony that he said these things (or, more pedantically in our weddings, accepted to have it written that he had said these things) in the presence of witnesses. The witnesses then sign it, and it is the authority of the witness testimony which creates the authority of the document.
answered Mar 18 at 19:25
Y e zY e z
46k374207
Ah! That makes a lot of sense. It also explains why remiza (signing) works as well.
– DanF
Mar 18 at 19:27
add a comment |
The kesuba serves as documentary testimony that the groom accepted upon himself the responsibilities entailed therein. It is not an I.O.U., but it is the documentation of his acceptance. Consider the following text within the kesuba (this is taken from the RCA's version):
ב ______ בשבת ______ לחדש ______ שנת חמשת אלפים ושבע מאות ______ לבריאת העולם למנין שאנו מנין כאן ______ איך החתן ______ בר ______ אמר לא להדא ______ בת ______ הוי לי לאנתו כדת משה וישראל ואנא אפלח ואוקיר ואיזון ואפרנס יתיכי ליכי כהלכות גוברין יהודאין דפלחין ומוקרין וזנין ומפרנסין לנשיהון
(Translation of relevant line) The groom ______ said to _______ "Be my wife ... and I will support, and honor, and nourish, and sustain you according to the rules of Jewish husbands that support, honor, nourish, and sustain their wives..."
The document is testimony that he said these things (or, more pedantically in our weddings, accepted to have it written that he had said these things) in the presence of witnesses. The witnesses then sign it, and it is the authority of the witness testimony which creates the authority of the document.
answered Mar 18 at 19:25
Y e zY e z
46k374207
The kesuba serves as documentary testimony that the groom accepted upon himself the responsibilities entailed therein. It is not an I.O.U., but it is the documentation of his acceptance. Consider the following text within the kesuba (this is taken from the RCA's version):
ב ______ בשבת ______ לחדש ______ שנת חמשת אלפים ושבע מאות ______ לבריאת העולם למנין שאנו מנין כאן ______ איך החתן ______ בר ______ אמר לא להדא ______ בת ______ הוי לי לאנתו כדת משה וישראל ואנא אפלח ואוקיר ואיזון ואפרנס יתיכי ליכי כהלכות גוברין יהודאין דפלחין ומוקרין וזנין ומפרנסין לנשיהון
(Translation of relevant line) The groom ______ said to _______ "Be my wife ... and I will support, and honor, and nourish, and sustain you according to the rules of Jewish husbands that support, honor, nourish, and sustain their wives..."
The document is testimony that he said these things (or, more pedantically in our weddings, accepted to have it written that he had said these things) in the presence of witnesses. The witnesses then sign it, and it is the authority of the witness testimony which creates the authority of the document.
answered Mar 18 at 19:25
Y e zY e z
46k374207
answered Mar 18 at 19:25
Y e zY e z
46k374207
answered Mar 18 at 19:25
Y e zY e z
46k374207
answered Mar 18 at 19:25
Y e zY e z
46k374207
46k374207
Ah! That makes a lot of sense. It also explains why remiza (signing) works as well.
– DanF
Mar 18 at 19:27
add a comment |
Ah! That makes a lot of sense. It also explains why remiza (signing) works as well.
– DanF
Mar 18 at 19:27
Ah! That makes a lot of sense. It also explains why remiza (signing) works as well.
– DanF
Mar 18 at 19:27
Ah! That makes a lot of sense. It also explains why remiza (signing) works as well.
– DanF
Mar 18 at 19:27
add a comment |
Certain communities have the Chatan Sign the Ketubah. This was the custom in Egypt. Source to come later.
I am not a Rabbi, nor a halakhic expert on this matter. But this is what would make sense to me:
We are less interested in a signature of the Hatan, because it isn't hard for someone to say "that's not my signature." But rather the power of the ketubah lies in the witnesses who saw the Chatan agree to the terms. You would bring these witnesses to the beit din, rather than bringing the ketubah with comparisons of your husband's signature. However, I see no reason why a chatan couldn't sign a ketubah, and this is probably how it was able to be done in places such as Egypt.
answered Mar 18 at 18:50
AaronAaron
5,84711537
add a comment |
Certain communities have the Chatan Sign the Ketubah. This was the custom in Egypt. Source to come later.
I am not a Rabbi, nor a halakhic expert on this matter. But this is what would make sense to me:
We are less interested in a signature of the Hatan, because it isn't hard for someone to say "that's not my signature." But rather the power of the ketubah lies in the witnesses who saw the Chatan agree to the terms. You would bring these witnesses to the beit din, rather than bringing the ketubah with comparisons of your husband's signature. However, I see no reason why a chatan couldn't sign a ketubah, and this is probably how it was able to be done in places such as Egypt.
answered Mar 18 at 18:50
AaronAaron
5,84711537
add a comment |
Certain communities have the Chatan Sign the Ketubah. This was the custom in Egypt. Source to come later.
I am not a Rabbi, nor a halakhic expert on this matter. But this is what would make sense to me:
We are less interested in a signature of the Hatan, because it isn't hard for someone to say "that's not my signature." But rather the power of the ketubah lies in the witnesses who saw the Chatan agree to the terms. You would bring these witnesses to the beit din, rather than bringing the ketubah with comparisons of your husband's signature. However, I see no reason why a chatan couldn't sign a ketubah, and this is probably how it was able to be done in places such as Egypt.
answered Mar 18 at 18:50
AaronAaron
5,84711537
Certain communities have the Chatan Sign the Ketubah. This was the custom in Egypt. Source to come later.
I am not a Rabbi, nor a halakhic expert on this matter. But this is what would make sense to me:
We are less interested in a signature of the Hatan, because it isn't hard for someone to say "that's not my signature." But rather the power of the ketubah lies in the witnesses who saw the Chatan agree to the terms. You would bring these witnesses to the beit din, rather than bringing the ketubah with comparisons of your husband's signature. However, I see no reason why a chatan couldn't sign a ketubah, and this is probably how it was able to be done in places such as Egypt.
answered Mar 18 at 18:50
AaronAaron
5,84711537
edited Mar 18 at 19:32
answered Mar 18 at 18:50
AaronAaron
5,84711537
answered Mar 18 at 18:50
AaronAaron
5,84711537
answered Mar 18 at 18:50
AaronAaron
5,84711537
5,84711537
add a comment |
add a comment |
3
What's wrong with witnesses signing that he agreed to the debt?
– Double AA♦
Mar 18 at 19:07
Both I and my wife signed on my Ketubah, although I realize we are the minority. (Weird family minhag.)
– רבות מחשבות
Mar 18 at 19:15
@רבותמחשבות same. We had a Hebrew/English one though and we only signed the English part
– alicht
Mar 18 at 19:23
1
In Israel it is common for the chatan to also sign it. The text added (my translation) "Also I, the chatan, affirm the above" followed by his signature
– theblitz
Mar 18 at 23:44