Relative minor key change in chord progression“I-vi” in Major or “III-i” in Minor?Can chords found in parallel modes of the relative minor of a key (or relative major when in a minor key) be considered borrowed chords?What determines whether a chord progression makes sense?Can chord substitutions take place unrestrictedly without invalidating a progression?Minor key and its chordsweird chord progression questionm7b5 Chords in a Chord Progression?Nomenclature of diminished chords within diatonic harmonyAfter key change from minor to major, why does the vi chord sound so bad?Is there any significance of key change of 3 semitones in pop songs?

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Relative minor key change in chord progression


“I-vi” in Major or “III-i” in Minor?Can chords found in parallel modes of the relative minor of a key (or relative major when in a minor key) be considered borrowed chords?What determines whether a chord progression makes sense?Can chord substitutions take place unrestrictedly without invalidating a progression?Minor key and its chordsweird chord progression questionm7b5 Chords in a Chord Progression?Nomenclature of diminished chords within diatonic harmonyAfter key change from minor to major, why does the vi chord sound so bad?Is there any significance of key change of 3 semitones in pop songs?













0















I'm writing a song in F Major key.



I have a chord progression that goes Like



4/4



C7 - C#dim - Dm - Dm



( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi )



After this four measures, I wanted to change key to Dm for a moment.



So thinking the last measure's Dm (Vi) as a tonic (i) for the next four measure,



I went



A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5



which is the same ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key.



But I start to think, is ( A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5 ) really ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key ?



or am I still in F Major key and the actual chord progression is



V7/VI - III#dim - iv#m7-5 - iv#m7-5



what are the details that establish a key change ?










share|improve this question
























  • Is this school homework or something? Why do you care about what the key "really" is? Who's going to act upon your key classification?

    – piiperi
    2 days ago











  • @piiperi no I don't have any teachers. because I like to know everything going on in my music

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    2 days ago






  • 1





    I'm voting to close because, as written, this question is generating some confusion as to what the OP is really asking.

    – Alex Basson
    2 days ago






  • 3





    @AlexBasson no what I'm asking is very simple. did I really went to Dm key when I went to the A7 part

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    2 days ago






  • 1





    @HyunYooPark What you're asking is very simple only if you believe there's some objectively true answer possible. But there isn't. Did you intend to modulate to D minor? Or did you just write down chords that sounded good to you and then try to figure out what it meant later? We can't answer that for you. And either way, your listeners are going to hear the music on its own and make of it what they will for themselves, independent of your intent.

    – Alex Basson
    2 days ago















0















I'm writing a song in F Major key.



I have a chord progression that goes Like



4/4



C7 - C#dim - Dm - Dm



( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi )



After this four measures, I wanted to change key to Dm for a moment.



So thinking the last measure's Dm (Vi) as a tonic (i) for the next four measure,



I went



A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5



which is the same ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key.



But I start to think, is ( A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5 ) really ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key ?



or am I still in F Major key and the actual chord progression is



V7/VI - III#dim - iv#m7-5 - iv#m7-5



what are the details that establish a key change ?










share|improve this question
























  • Is this school homework or something? Why do you care about what the key "really" is? Who's going to act upon your key classification?

    – piiperi
    2 days ago











  • @piiperi no I don't have any teachers. because I like to know everything going on in my music

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    2 days ago






  • 1





    I'm voting to close because, as written, this question is generating some confusion as to what the OP is really asking.

    – Alex Basson
    2 days ago






  • 3





    @AlexBasson no what I'm asking is very simple. did I really went to Dm key when I went to the A7 part

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    2 days ago






  • 1





    @HyunYooPark What you're asking is very simple only if you believe there's some objectively true answer possible. But there isn't. Did you intend to modulate to D minor? Or did you just write down chords that sounded good to you and then try to figure out what it meant later? We can't answer that for you. And either way, your listeners are going to hear the music on its own and make of it what they will for themselves, independent of your intent.

    – Alex Basson
    2 days ago













0












0








0








I'm writing a song in F Major key.



I have a chord progression that goes Like



4/4



C7 - C#dim - Dm - Dm



( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi )



After this four measures, I wanted to change key to Dm for a moment.



So thinking the last measure's Dm (Vi) as a tonic (i) for the next four measure,



I went



A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5



which is the same ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key.



But I start to think, is ( A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5 ) really ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key ?



or am I still in F Major key and the actual chord progression is



V7/VI - III#dim - iv#m7-5 - iv#m7-5



what are the details that establish a key change ?










share|improve this question
















I'm writing a song in F Major key.



I have a chord progression that goes Like



4/4



C7 - C#dim - Dm - Dm



( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi )



After this four measures, I wanted to change key to Dm for a moment.



So thinking the last measure's Dm (Vi) as a tonic (i) for the next four measure,



I went



A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5



which is the same ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key.



But I start to think, is ( A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5 ) really ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key ?



or am I still in F Major key and the actual chord progression is



V7/VI - III#dim - iv#m7-5 - iv#m7-5



what are the details that establish a key change ?







theory chords chord-theory chord-progressions modulation






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 2 days ago









user45266

3,4201734




3,4201734










asked 2 days ago









Hyun Yoo ParkHyun Yoo Park

45827




45827












  • Is this school homework or something? Why do you care about what the key "really" is? Who's going to act upon your key classification?

    – piiperi
    2 days ago











  • @piiperi no I don't have any teachers. because I like to know everything going on in my music

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    2 days ago






  • 1





    I'm voting to close because, as written, this question is generating some confusion as to what the OP is really asking.

    – Alex Basson
    2 days ago






  • 3





    @AlexBasson no what I'm asking is very simple. did I really went to Dm key when I went to the A7 part

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    2 days ago






  • 1





    @HyunYooPark What you're asking is very simple only if you believe there's some objectively true answer possible. But there isn't. Did you intend to modulate to D minor? Or did you just write down chords that sounded good to you and then try to figure out what it meant later? We can't answer that for you. And either way, your listeners are going to hear the music on its own and make of it what they will for themselves, independent of your intent.

    – Alex Basson
    2 days ago

















  • Is this school homework or something? Why do you care about what the key "really" is? Who's going to act upon your key classification?

    – piiperi
    2 days ago











  • @piiperi no I don't have any teachers. because I like to know everything going on in my music

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    2 days ago






  • 1





    I'm voting to close because, as written, this question is generating some confusion as to what the OP is really asking.

    – Alex Basson
    2 days ago






  • 3





    @AlexBasson no what I'm asking is very simple. did I really went to Dm key when I went to the A7 part

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    2 days ago






  • 1





    @HyunYooPark What you're asking is very simple only if you believe there's some objectively true answer possible. But there isn't. Did you intend to modulate to D minor? Or did you just write down chords that sounded good to you and then try to figure out what it meant later? We can't answer that for you. And either way, your listeners are going to hear the music on its own and make of it what they will for themselves, independent of your intent.

    – Alex Basson
    2 days ago
















Is this school homework or something? Why do you care about what the key "really" is? Who's going to act upon your key classification?

– piiperi
2 days ago





Is this school homework or something? Why do you care about what the key "really" is? Who's going to act upon your key classification?

– piiperi
2 days ago













@piiperi no I don't have any teachers. because I like to know everything going on in my music

– Hyun Yoo Park
2 days ago





@piiperi no I don't have any teachers. because I like to know everything going on in my music

– Hyun Yoo Park
2 days ago




1




1





I'm voting to close because, as written, this question is generating some confusion as to what the OP is really asking.

– Alex Basson
2 days ago





I'm voting to close because, as written, this question is generating some confusion as to what the OP is really asking.

– Alex Basson
2 days ago




3




3





@AlexBasson no what I'm asking is very simple. did I really went to Dm key when I went to the A7 part

– Hyun Yoo Park
2 days ago





@AlexBasson no what I'm asking is very simple. did I really went to Dm key when I went to the A7 part

– Hyun Yoo Park
2 days ago




1




1





@HyunYooPark What you're asking is very simple only if you believe there's some objectively true answer possible. But there isn't. Did you intend to modulate to D minor? Or did you just write down chords that sounded good to you and then try to figure out what it meant later? We can't answer that for you. And either way, your listeners are going to hear the music on its own and make of it what they will for themselves, independent of your intent.

– Alex Basson
2 days ago





@HyunYooPark What you're asking is very simple only if you believe there's some objectively true answer possible. But there isn't. Did you intend to modulate to D minor? Or did you just write down chords that sounded good to you and then try to figure out what it meant later? We can't answer that for you. And either way, your listeners are going to hear the music on its own and make of it what they will for themselves, independent of your intent.

– Alex Basson
2 days ago










5 Answers
5






active

oldest

votes


















4














It is subjective. Your feelings define it.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music)




... a tonic or tonic chord, which provides a subjective sense of
arrival and rest
...




If you feel that the home base moved, then you feel that the key changed. Someone else might feel differently.



If your real question is, how to create those feelings, i.e. how to establish a key, I think there are questions and answers about that already. Use a proper cadence or something. If establishing Dm is what you're trying to do, then why do you move the bass to B instead of D, and via an A#dim instead of C#dim? If you want your audience to think about an elephant, why say "excavator". You might still be able to make it sound clearly like Dm if you write a strong melody line that disregards the obfuscated chords and overlays something that's strongly in Dm.






share|improve this answer























  • Isn't A#o the same as C#o, maybe with a different bass note, depending how it gets written? Although Go and Eo probably fit the key better anyway.

    – Tim
    2 days ago











  • @Tim it's the bass note I meant. A - C# - D bass movement feels more effective for establishing a Dm tonic than A - A# - D. My opinion only though. But the OP wasn't really asking how to establish a key ... he is asking for others to tell him what the key is in a chord progression he wrote.

    – piiperi
    2 days ago


















3














Every modulation is a key change. Usually a modulation will have some close relationship to the previous key, like C>Dm, or C>F, or C>G, involving at least a common note or chord, whereas a key change could be a move a semitone or a tone up.



It's not always necessary to change key signature for a modulation - which may even re-modulate back to the original key - but for a complete key change it's worthwhile changing the key sig.



Quite often a piece will drift in and out of, say, C and Am. Certainly more of a mod. than a key change, but not really worth considering as either, unless one wants to be totally academic. It's just what music sometimes does.






share|improve this answer























  • I'm not talking about notations.

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    2 days ago






  • 1





    O.k. it's established you're not talking about notation. What are you talking about?

    – Tim
    2 days ago











  • I already wrote it detail as possible in my question. can you tell me what is your not getting ?

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    2 days ago






  • 3





    @HyunYooPark I think what we're not getting is that you seem to be asking us to explain to you what your musical intent is. You've written down some chord progressions and then asked us "Is my intent to be in D minor or F major?" But of course this isn't a question we can answer—no one can say what your intent is but you.

    – Alex Basson
    2 days ago






  • 2





    @AlexBasson to be fair, I think you're actually giving a good answer to the question! IOW the answer is: it's a question of intention and perception, not definition.

    – topo morto
    2 days ago


















2














As you change from F (C7 is the dominant) to dm this is a false cadence. To establish this new key Dm I propose a normal cadence in the new key Dm, to make the moduation perfect or unambiguous.






share|improve this answer























  • going to Dm is not my goal. my attention was doing Parallel structure with ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) on dm key

    – Hyun Yoo Park
    2 days ago


















2














Nothing definitively indicates a key change in the kind of situation you are talking about.



Of course it's true that there are many 'textbook' examples of key changes, for example where the change is prepared and fulfilled in a certain way. But in general, there isn't really any one particular thing - or even group of things - that you can point to that 'defines' a key change, and likewise there isn't really anything that defines the 'momentary' key of a piece in the first place.



The nearest thing you will get to a definition of the overall key of the piece will be a combination of key signature, and an instruction as to the key either in the title of the piece, or elsewhere in notation. If there's no such instruction, then at the very least you will have to make your own judgement as to whether the key is major or the relative minor, and while there are many cases where most people would agree, there are some ambiguous cases too.



And of course, you have the same difficulty when discussing key changes, especially (as in your case) between relative minor and major keys. What one person hears as a key change, another might simply hear as a movement to the vi chord.




But I start to think, is ( A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5 ) really ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key ?
or am I still in F Major key and the actual chord progression is
V7/VI - III#dim - iv#m7-5 - iv#m7-5 ..?




It's up to you, as the person analysing the piece, to decide which perspective is more useful.






share|improve this answer
































    1














    F major and D minor are so closely related as to be almost the same key. I'm inclined to describe what you're doing as simply sequential imitation within a single key.



    Does it make any difference, other that in what labels you put on the chords?






    share|improve this answer






















      Your Answer








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      5 Answers
      5






      active

      oldest

      votes








      5 Answers
      5






      active

      oldest

      votes









      active

      oldest

      votes






      active

      oldest

      votes









      4














      It is subjective. Your feelings define it.



      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music)




      ... a tonic or tonic chord, which provides a subjective sense of
      arrival and rest
      ...




      If you feel that the home base moved, then you feel that the key changed. Someone else might feel differently.



      If your real question is, how to create those feelings, i.e. how to establish a key, I think there are questions and answers about that already. Use a proper cadence or something. If establishing Dm is what you're trying to do, then why do you move the bass to B instead of D, and via an A#dim instead of C#dim? If you want your audience to think about an elephant, why say "excavator". You might still be able to make it sound clearly like Dm if you write a strong melody line that disregards the obfuscated chords and overlays something that's strongly in Dm.






      share|improve this answer























      • Isn't A#o the same as C#o, maybe with a different bass note, depending how it gets written? Although Go and Eo probably fit the key better anyway.

        – Tim
        2 days ago











      • @Tim it's the bass note I meant. A - C# - D bass movement feels more effective for establishing a Dm tonic than A - A# - D. My opinion only though. But the OP wasn't really asking how to establish a key ... he is asking for others to tell him what the key is in a chord progression he wrote.

        – piiperi
        2 days ago















      4














      It is subjective. Your feelings define it.



      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music)




      ... a tonic or tonic chord, which provides a subjective sense of
      arrival and rest
      ...




      If you feel that the home base moved, then you feel that the key changed. Someone else might feel differently.



      If your real question is, how to create those feelings, i.e. how to establish a key, I think there are questions and answers about that already. Use a proper cadence or something. If establishing Dm is what you're trying to do, then why do you move the bass to B instead of D, and via an A#dim instead of C#dim? If you want your audience to think about an elephant, why say "excavator". You might still be able to make it sound clearly like Dm if you write a strong melody line that disregards the obfuscated chords and overlays something that's strongly in Dm.






      share|improve this answer























      • Isn't A#o the same as C#o, maybe with a different bass note, depending how it gets written? Although Go and Eo probably fit the key better anyway.

        – Tim
        2 days ago











      • @Tim it's the bass note I meant. A - C# - D bass movement feels more effective for establishing a Dm tonic than A - A# - D. My opinion only though. But the OP wasn't really asking how to establish a key ... he is asking for others to tell him what the key is in a chord progression he wrote.

        – piiperi
        2 days ago













      4












      4








      4







      It is subjective. Your feelings define it.



      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music)




      ... a tonic or tonic chord, which provides a subjective sense of
      arrival and rest
      ...




      If you feel that the home base moved, then you feel that the key changed. Someone else might feel differently.



      If your real question is, how to create those feelings, i.e. how to establish a key, I think there are questions and answers about that already. Use a proper cadence or something. If establishing Dm is what you're trying to do, then why do you move the bass to B instead of D, and via an A#dim instead of C#dim? If you want your audience to think about an elephant, why say "excavator". You might still be able to make it sound clearly like Dm if you write a strong melody line that disregards the obfuscated chords and overlays something that's strongly in Dm.






      share|improve this answer













      It is subjective. Your feelings define it.



      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music)




      ... a tonic or tonic chord, which provides a subjective sense of
      arrival and rest
      ...




      If you feel that the home base moved, then you feel that the key changed. Someone else might feel differently.



      If your real question is, how to create those feelings, i.e. how to establish a key, I think there are questions and answers about that already. Use a proper cadence or something. If establishing Dm is what you're trying to do, then why do you move the bass to B instead of D, and via an A#dim instead of C#dim? If you want your audience to think about an elephant, why say "excavator". You might still be able to make it sound clearly like Dm if you write a strong melody line that disregards the obfuscated chords and overlays something that's strongly in Dm.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 2 days ago









      piiperipiiperi

      1,914210




      1,914210












      • Isn't A#o the same as C#o, maybe with a different bass note, depending how it gets written? Although Go and Eo probably fit the key better anyway.

        – Tim
        2 days ago











      • @Tim it's the bass note I meant. A - C# - D bass movement feels more effective for establishing a Dm tonic than A - A# - D. My opinion only though. But the OP wasn't really asking how to establish a key ... he is asking for others to tell him what the key is in a chord progression he wrote.

        – piiperi
        2 days ago

















      • Isn't A#o the same as C#o, maybe with a different bass note, depending how it gets written? Although Go and Eo probably fit the key better anyway.

        – Tim
        2 days ago











      • @Tim it's the bass note I meant. A - C# - D bass movement feels more effective for establishing a Dm tonic than A - A# - D. My opinion only though. But the OP wasn't really asking how to establish a key ... he is asking for others to tell him what the key is in a chord progression he wrote.

        – piiperi
        2 days ago
















      Isn't A#o the same as C#o, maybe with a different bass note, depending how it gets written? Although Go and Eo probably fit the key better anyway.

      – Tim
      2 days ago





      Isn't A#o the same as C#o, maybe with a different bass note, depending how it gets written? Although Go and Eo probably fit the key better anyway.

      – Tim
      2 days ago













      @Tim it's the bass note I meant. A - C# - D bass movement feels more effective for establishing a Dm tonic than A - A# - D. My opinion only though. But the OP wasn't really asking how to establish a key ... he is asking for others to tell him what the key is in a chord progression he wrote.

      – piiperi
      2 days ago





      @Tim it's the bass note I meant. A - C# - D bass movement feels more effective for establishing a Dm tonic than A - A# - D. My opinion only though. But the OP wasn't really asking how to establish a key ... he is asking for others to tell him what the key is in a chord progression he wrote.

      – piiperi
      2 days ago











      3














      Every modulation is a key change. Usually a modulation will have some close relationship to the previous key, like C>Dm, or C>F, or C>G, involving at least a common note or chord, whereas a key change could be a move a semitone or a tone up.



      It's not always necessary to change key signature for a modulation - which may even re-modulate back to the original key - but for a complete key change it's worthwhile changing the key sig.



      Quite often a piece will drift in and out of, say, C and Am. Certainly more of a mod. than a key change, but not really worth considering as either, unless one wants to be totally academic. It's just what music sometimes does.






      share|improve this answer























      • I'm not talking about notations.

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        2 days ago






      • 1





        O.k. it's established you're not talking about notation. What are you talking about?

        – Tim
        2 days ago











      • I already wrote it detail as possible in my question. can you tell me what is your not getting ?

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        2 days ago






      • 3





        @HyunYooPark I think what we're not getting is that you seem to be asking us to explain to you what your musical intent is. You've written down some chord progressions and then asked us "Is my intent to be in D minor or F major?" But of course this isn't a question we can answer—no one can say what your intent is but you.

        – Alex Basson
        2 days ago






      • 2





        @AlexBasson to be fair, I think you're actually giving a good answer to the question! IOW the answer is: it's a question of intention and perception, not definition.

        – topo morto
        2 days ago















      3














      Every modulation is a key change. Usually a modulation will have some close relationship to the previous key, like C>Dm, or C>F, or C>G, involving at least a common note or chord, whereas a key change could be a move a semitone or a tone up.



      It's not always necessary to change key signature for a modulation - which may even re-modulate back to the original key - but for a complete key change it's worthwhile changing the key sig.



      Quite often a piece will drift in and out of, say, C and Am. Certainly more of a mod. than a key change, but not really worth considering as either, unless one wants to be totally academic. It's just what music sometimes does.






      share|improve this answer























      • I'm not talking about notations.

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        2 days ago






      • 1





        O.k. it's established you're not talking about notation. What are you talking about?

        – Tim
        2 days ago











      • I already wrote it detail as possible in my question. can you tell me what is your not getting ?

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        2 days ago






      • 3





        @HyunYooPark I think what we're not getting is that you seem to be asking us to explain to you what your musical intent is. You've written down some chord progressions and then asked us "Is my intent to be in D minor or F major?" But of course this isn't a question we can answer—no one can say what your intent is but you.

        – Alex Basson
        2 days ago






      • 2





        @AlexBasson to be fair, I think you're actually giving a good answer to the question! IOW the answer is: it's a question of intention and perception, not definition.

        – topo morto
        2 days ago













      3












      3








      3







      Every modulation is a key change. Usually a modulation will have some close relationship to the previous key, like C>Dm, or C>F, or C>G, involving at least a common note or chord, whereas a key change could be a move a semitone or a tone up.



      It's not always necessary to change key signature for a modulation - which may even re-modulate back to the original key - but for a complete key change it's worthwhile changing the key sig.



      Quite often a piece will drift in and out of, say, C and Am. Certainly more of a mod. than a key change, but not really worth considering as either, unless one wants to be totally academic. It's just what music sometimes does.






      share|improve this answer













      Every modulation is a key change. Usually a modulation will have some close relationship to the previous key, like C>Dm, or C>F, or C>G, involving at least a common note or chord, whereas a key change could be a move a semitone or a tone up.



      It's not always necessary to change key signature for a modulation - which may even re-modulate back to the original key - but for a complete key change it's worthwhile changing the key sig.



      Quite often a piece will drift in and out of, say, C and Am. Certainly more of a mod. than a key change, but not really worth considering as either, unless one wants to be totally academic. It's just what music sometimes does.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 2 days ago









      TimTim

      102k10107259




      102k10107259












      • I'm not talking about notations.

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        2 days ago






      • 1





        O.k. it's established you're not talking about notation. What are you talking about?

        – Tim
        2 days ago











      • I already wrote it detail as possible in my question. can you tell me what is your not getting ?

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        2 days ago






      • 3





        @HyunYooPark I think what we're not getting is that you seem to be asking us to explain to you what your musical intent is. You've written down some chord progressions and then asked us "Is my intent to be in D minor or F major?" But of course this isn't a question we can answer—no one can say what your intent is but you.

        – Alex Basson
        2 days ago






      • 2





        @AlexBasson to be fair, I think you're actually giving a good answer to the question! IOW the answer is: it's a question of intention and perception, not definition.

        – topo morto
        2 days ago

















      • I'm not talking about notations.

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        2 days ago






      • 1





        O.k. it's established you're not talking about notation. What are you talking about?

        – Tim
        2 days ago











      • I already wrote it detail as possible in my question. can you tell me what is your not getting ?

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        2 days ago






      • 3





        @HyunYooPark I think what we're not getting is that you seem to be asking us to explain to you what your musical intent is. You've written down some chord progressions and then asked us "Is my intent to be in D minor or F major?" But of course this isn't a question we can answer—no one can say what your intent is but you.

        – Alex Basson
        2 days ago






      • 2





        @AlexBasson to be fair, I think you're actually giving a good answer to the question! IOW the answer is: it's a question of intention and perception, not definition.

        – topo morto
        2 days ago
















      I'm not talking about notations.

      – Hyun Yoo Park
      2 days ago





      I'm not talking about notations.

      – Hyun Yoo Park
      2 days ago




      1




      1





      O.k. it's established you're not talking about notation. What are you talking about?

      – Tim
      2 days ago





      O.k. it's established you're not talking about notation. What are you talking about?

      – Tim
      2 days ago













      I already wrote it detail as possible in my question. can you tell me what is your not getting ?

      – Hyun Yoo Park
      2 days ago





      I already wrote it detail as possible in my question. can you tell me what is your not getting ?

      – Hyun Yoo Park
      2 days ago




      3




      3





      @HyunYooPark I think what we're not getting is that you seem to be asking us to explain to you what your musical intent is. You've written down some chord progressions and then asked us "Is my intent to be in D minor or F major?" But of course this isn't a question we can answer—no one can say what your intent is but you.

      – Alex Basson
      2 days ago





      @HyunYooPark I think what we're not getting is that you seem to be asking us to explain to you what your musical intent is. You've written down some chord progressions and then asked us "Is my intent to be in D minor or F major?" But of course this isn't a question we can answer—no one can say what your intent is but you.

      – Alex Basson
      2 days ago




      2




      2





      @AlexBasson to be fair, I think you're actually giving a good answer to the question! IOW the answer is: it's a question of intention and perception, not definition.

      – topo morto
      2 days ago





      @AlexBasson to be fair, I think you're actually giving a good answer to the question! IOW the answer is: it's a question of intention and perception, not definition.

      – topo morto
      2 days ago











      2














      As you change from F (C7 is the dominant) to dm this is a false cadence. To establish this new key Dm I propose a normal cadence in the new key Dm, to make the moduation perfect or unambiguous.






      share|improve this answer























      • going to Dm is not my goal. my attention was doing Parallel structure with ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) on dm key

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        2 days ago















      2














      As you change from F (C7 is the dominant) to dm this is a false cadence. To establish this new key Dm I propose a normal cadence in the new key Dm, to make the moduation perfect or unambiguous.






      share|improve this answer























      • going to Dm is not my goal. my attention was doing Parallel structure with ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) on dm key

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        2 days ago













      2












      2








      2







      As you change from F (C7 is the dominant) to dm this is a false cadence. To establish this new key Dm I propose a normal cadence in the new key Dm, to make the moduation perfect or unambiguous.






      share|improve this answer













      As you change from F (C7 is the dominant) to dm this is a false cadence. To establish this new key Dm I propose a normal cadence in the new key Dm, to make the moduation perfect or unambiguous.







      share|improve this answer












      share|improve this answer



      share|improve this answer










      answered 2 days ago









      Albrecht HügliAlbrecht Hügli

      3,127220




      3,127220












      • going to Dm is not my goal. my attention was doing Parallel structure with ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) on dm key

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        2 days ago

















      • going to Dm is not my goal. my attention was doing Parallel structure with ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) on dm key

        – Hyun Yoo Park
        2 days ago
















      going to Dm is not my goal. my attention was doing Parallel structure with ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) on dm key

      – Hyun Yoo Park
      2 days ago





      going to Dm is not my goal. my attention was doing Parallel structure with ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) on dm key

      – Hyun Yoo Park
      2 days ago











      2














      Nothing definitively indicates a key change in the kind of situation you are talking about.



      Of course it's true that there are many 'textbook' examples of key changes, for example where the change is prepared and fulfilled in a certain way. But in general, there isn't really any one particular thing - or even group of things - that you can point to that 'defines' a key change, and likewise there isn't really anything that defines the 'momentary' key of a piece in the first place.



      The nearest thing you will get to a definition of the overall key of the piece will be a combination of key signature, and an instruction as to the key either in the title of the piece, or elsewhere in notation. If there's no such instruction, then at the very least you will have to make your own judgement as to whether the key is major or the relative minor, and while there are many cases where most people would agree, there are some ambiguous cases too.



      And of course, you have the same difficulty when discussing key changes, especially (as in your case) between relative minor and major keys. What one person hears as a key change, another might simply hear as a movement to the vi chord.




      But I start to think, is ( A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5 ) really ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key ?
      or am I still in F Major key and the actual chord progression is
      V7/VI - III#dim - iv#m7-5 - iv#m7-5 ..?




      It's up to you, as the person analysing the piece, to decide which perspective is more useful.






      share|improve this answer





























        2














        Nothing definitively indicates a key change in the kind of situation you are talking about.



        Of course it's true that there are many 'textbook' examples of key changes, for example where the change is prepared and fulfilled in a certain way. But in general, there isn't really any one particular thing - or even group of things - that you can point to that 'defines' a key change, and likewise there isn't really anything that defines the 'momentary' key of a piece in the first place.



        The nearest thing you will get to a definition of the overall key of the piece will be a combination of key signature, and an instruction as to the key either in the title of the piece, or elsewhere in notation. If there's no such instruction, then at the very least you will have to make your own judgement as to whether the key is major or the relative minor, and while there are many cases where most people would agree, there are some ambiguous cases too.



        And of course, you have the same difficulty when discussing key changes, especially (as in your case) between relative minor and major keys. What one person hears as a key change, another might simply hear as a movement to the vi chord.




        But I start to think, is ( A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5 ) really ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key ?
        or am I still in F Major key and the actual chord progression is
        V7/VI - III#dim - iv#m7-5 - iv#m7-5 ..?




        It's up to you, as the person analysing the piece, to decide which perspective is more useful.






        share|improve this answer



























          2












          2








          2







          Nothing definitively indicates a key change in the kind of situation you are talking about.



          Of course it's true that there are many 'textbook' examples of key changes, for example where the change is prepared and fulfilled in a certain way. But in general, there isn't really any one particular thing - or even group of things - that you can point to that 'defines' a key change, and likewise there isn't really anything that defines the 'momentary' key of a piece in the first place.



          The nearest thing you will get to a definition of the overall key of the piece will be a combination of key signature, and an instruction as to the key either in the title of the piece, or elsewhere in notation. If there's no such instruction, then at the very least you will have to make your own judgement as to whether the key is major or the relative minor, and while there are many cases where most people would agree, there are some ambiguous cases too.



          And of course, you have the same difficulty when discussing key changes, especially (as in your case) between relative minor and major keys. What one person hears as a key change, another might simply hear as a movement to the vi chord.




          But I start to think, is ( A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5 ) really ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key ?
          or am I still in F Major key and the actual chord progression is
          V7/VI - III#dim - iv#m7-5 - iv#m7-5 ..?




          It's up to you, as the person analysing the piece, to decide which perspective is more useful.






          share|improve this answer















          Nothing definitively indicates a key change in the kind of situation you are talking about.



          Of course it's true that there are many 'textbook' examples of key changes, for example where the change is prepared and fulfilled in a certain way. But in general, there isn't really any one particular thing - or even group of things - that you can point to that 'defines' a key change, and likewise there isn't really anything that defines the 'momentary' key of a piece in the first place.



          The nearest thing you will get to a definition of the overall key of the piece will be a combination of key signature, and an instruction as to the key either in the title of the piece, or elsewhere in notation. If there's no such instruction, then at the very least you will have to make your own judgement as to whether the key is major or the relative minor, and while there are many cases where most people would agree, there are some ambiguous cases too.



          And of course, you have the same difficulty when discussing key changes, especially (as in your case) between relative minor and major keys. What one person hears as a key change, another might simply hear as a movement to the vi chord.




          But I start to think, is ( A7 - A#dim - Bm7-5 - Bm7-5 ) really ( V7 - V#dim - Vi - Vi ) in Dm key ?
          or am I still in F Major key and the actual chord progression is
          V7/VI - III#dim - iv#m7-5 - iv#m7-5 ..?




          It's up to you, as the person analysing the piece, to decide which perspective is more useful.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited 2 days ago

























          answered 2 days ago









          topo mortotopo morto

          25.8k244103




          25.8k244103





















              1














              F major and D minor are so closely related as to be almost the same key. I'm inclined to describe what you're doing as simply sequential imitation within a single key.



              Does it make any difference, other that in what labels you put on the chords?






              share|improve this answer



























                1














                F major and D minor are so closely related as to be almost the same key. I'm inclined to describe what you're doing as simply sequential imitation within a single key.



                Does it make any difference, other that in what labels you put on the chords?






                share|improve this answer

























                  1












                  1








                  1







                  F major and D minor are so closely related as to be almost the same key. I'm inclined to describe what you're doing as simply sequential imitation within a single key.



                  Does it make any difference, other that in what labels you put on the chords?






                  share|improve this answer













                  F major and D minor are so closely related as to be almost the same key. I'm inclined to describe what you're doing as simply sequential imitation within a single key.



                  Does it make any difference, other that in what labels you put on the chords?







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered 2 days ago









                  Laurence PayneLaurence Payne

                  36k1669




                  36k1669



























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