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Is it “Vierergruppe” or “Viergruppe”, or is there a distinction?


Fugenkonsonanten bei zusammengesetzten WörternIs there a difference in the usage of “eben” vs. “vorhin”?Is there a difference between “anschalten” and “einschalten”Is there a 'da-' construct with 'ohne'? if not, are there any more prepositions that can't form 'da-' constructsIs there a pattern in the formation of compound verbs via prefixes?Is there a difference between „einschätzen“ and „beurteilen“?Is there a difference in the meaning of “Kein Zugang” and “Kein Zutritt”?Different ways to say “there is”Is there a specific difference between Abstrafung and Bestrafung?Is there any difference between “anstatt” and “statt”?Is there any differences between “gucken” and “schauen”?













9















I have come to accept that I will never fully understand the formation of compound nouns in German. But I would like some information about one particular example.



Die Kleinsche Vierergruppe is an important structure in the mathematical area of group theory. The name is a compound of "Vier" and "Gruppe", and the extra "er" is something I just have to accept. However, there are some sources that write "Viergruppe". So I wonder if perhaps both forms are used, but one is more common. But then I see this page, which, in a non-mathematical context, uses both forms in the space of four words.



What is going on?










share|improve this question







New contributor




FredH is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.















  • 5





    I took the liberty to fix the typo in wikipedia. Just in case someone is wonderng what's up in the first link

    – Christian
    Mar 11 at 10:05















9















I have come to accept that I will never fully understand the formation of compound nouns in German. But I would like some information about one particular example.



Die Kleinsche Vierergruppe is an important structure in the mathematical area of group theory. The name is a compound of "Vier" and "Gruppe", and the extra "er" is something I just have to accept. However, there are some sources that write "Viergruppe". So I wonder if perhaps both forms are used, but one is more common. But then I see this page, which, in a non-mathematical context, uses both forms in the space of four words.



What is going on?










share|improve this question







New contributor




FredH is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.















  • 5





    I took the liberty to fix the typo in wikipedia. Just in case someone is wonderng what's up in the first link

    – Christian
    Mar 11 at 10:05













9












9








9








I have come to accept that I will never fully understand the formation of compound nouns in German. But I would like some information about one particular example.



Die Kleinsche Vierergruppe is an important structure in the mathematical area of group theory. The name is a compound of "Vier" and "Gruppe", and the extra "er" is something I just have to accept. However, there are some sources that write "Viergruppe". So I wonder if perhaps both forms are used, but one is more common. But then I see this page, which, in a non-mathematical context, uses both forms in the space of four words.



What is going on?










share|improve this question







New contributor




FredH is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












I have come to accept that I will never fully understand the formation of compound nouns in German. But I would like some information about one particular example.



Die Kleinsche Vierergruppe is an important structure in the mathematical area of group theory. The name is a compound of "Vier" and "Gruppe", and the extra "er" is something I just have to accept. However, there are some sources that write "Viergruppe". So I wonder if perhaps both forms are used, but one is more common. But then I see this page, which, in a non-mathematical context, uses both forms in the space of four words.



What is going on?







word-usage differences compounds






share|improve this question







New contributor




FredH is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question







New contributor




FredH is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question






New contributor




FredH is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









asked Mar 11 at 7:56









FredHFredH

1485




1485




New contributor




FredH is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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New contributor





FredH is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






FredH is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.







  • 5





    I took the liberty to fix the typo in wikipedia. Just in case someone is wonderng what's up in the first link

    – Christian
    Mar 11 at 10:05












  • 5





    I took the liberty to fix the typo in wikipedia. Just in case someone is wonderng what's up in the first link

    – Christian
    Mar 11 at 10:05







5




5





I took the liberty to fix the typo in wikipedia. Just in case someone is wonderng what's up in the first link

– Christian
Mar 11 at 10:05





I took the liberty to fix the typo in wikipedia. Just in case someone is wonderng what's up in the first link

– Christian
Mar 11 at 10:05










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















23














For me, "Viergruppe" sounds simply wrong, so I consider it a typo in the sources, you found.



As mentioned in the linked answer compositions of nouns in German may have a "Fugenlaut". For combinations of numbers and other nouns this is indeed the Fugenlaut "-er-", e. g.



  • Dreiergruppe

  • Vierergruppe

  • Fünfergruppe

and so on.






share|improve this answer




















  • 7





    Worth noting that the math text is in English and we can safely assume that "Viergruppe" is an invalid literal translation of "four group". The German text says "die andere Vierergruppe" referring to the "Viergruppe" mentioned before. "Andere" indicates that the intention was to use the same word, so that is a simple typo indeed.

    – Peter A. Schneider
    Mar 11 at 13:04












  • It is definitely "Vierergruppe" in the original: Vorlesungen über das Ikosaeder und die Auflösung der Gleichungen vom fünften Grade

    – Georg Patscheider
    2 days ago



















7














First of all, note that compounds without -er (Einauge, Zweirad, Dreisatz, Dreiklang, Dreispitz, Vierauge, Fünfkampf) are more frequent than those with -er. I therefore assume compounds with -er have a narrower meaning.



This is borne out by the following observation. There are two ways to form number nouns: By way of zero derivation (feminine, die Eins, Zwei, Drei, etc.) or by adding -er (masculine, der Ein(s)er, Zweier, Dreier, etc.). The latter are more restricted than the former: They are mostly used to refer to grades (ein Fünfer/eine Fünf in Mathe) and money (Ich hab nur noch 'n Fünfer, einen Fünfeuroschein).



The pattern I can discern is that in compounds with -er, the number seems to refer to the internal structure of the object denoted by the head noun.




Zweierzimmer Zimmer mit zwei Betten (Swiss German)

Dreierbeziehung Beziehung zwischen drei Personen

Viererabteil Abteil für vier Personen

Viererpakt Pakt zwischen vier Parteien




Note that these compounds can sometimes be unpacked by adding a noun for the number to count. Then -er vanishes.




Zweibettzimmer, Vierpersonenabteil, Viermächtepakt




The examples you found look like mistakes to me; it should be Vierergruppe in all instances; this is the term Klein used. However, there seem to be some rare (!) cases of missing -er that look genuine. This dissertation from 1908 has Eins-, Zwei-, Drei-, Viergruppe. This could be related to the -er seen as a Fugenlaut and being stigmatized (there once was an attempt to change verfassungsgebend in the German constitution to verfassunggebend).



Having read the other answers to this question, I see that it is highly unclear what kind of -er this is: a nominal suffix, a genitive suffix or a Fugenlaut.






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    Also, in my experience with (older) maths books specifically, there do seem to be some weird nomenclatures around. I can't think of another example right now, but I would not be surprised if some mathematical book used "Viergruppe" consistently (although I would use "Vierergruppe" myself). Finally, what do you make of "Vierkant", "Viereck"... ;)

    – AnoE
    Mar 11 at 12:03











  • A Viereck has four corners, so the lack of -er isn't surprising. An interesting case could be Zwei(er)gespann, where the meaning would fit -er but the form without it occurs more frequently.

    – David Vogt
    Mar 11 at 12:33











  • Wiktionary notes that the noun Zweier (or Fünfer) referring to a grade is Austrian or perhaps Süddeutsch. Would you agree?

    – gerrit
    Mar 11 at 13:15











  • I grew up in Southern Germany and find Fünfer unremarkable. Now we need a Northerner's opinion :)

    – David Vogt
    Mar 11 at 13:23






  • 1





    @DavidVogt in the North, the grades are referenced as "Eins, Zwei, Drei,..", the Southern variant is extremely uncommon. Regarding the "Zweierzimmer": I once had an annoying experience with an Austrian innkeeper, who referred to his room number 6 as "das Sechserzimmer" on the phone, which I interpreted as "Sechsbettzimmer" (as would be the usual description). There were only 2 beds of course.

    – Chieron
    Mar 11 at 15:36


















5














Zweier, dreier, vierer ... are the genitive case of zwei, drei, vier... A "Vierergruppe" is a group of four. They can be used alone in phrases like "Streit zweier Parteien".






share|improve this answer


















  • 1





    "Zweier, dreier, vierer ... are the genitive case of zwei, drei, vier... " doesn't sound right to me. These are just straight nominatives as far as I can tell. "Der 3er BMW" has nothing to do with a Genetiv, it's just the masculine form of "3". Genetive would be "Des Dreiers" / "Des Vierers".

    – AnoE
    Mar 11 at 11:59












  • @AnoE. "Zweier" in "Streit zweier Parteien" is not nominative.

    – fdb
    Mar 11 at 12:34











  • It's the Genitiv Plural case, isn't it (Wiktionary Flexion:zwei)? Which begs the question: why the plural?

    – gerrit
    Mar 11 at 13:11







  • 2





    @gerrit. Numbers greater than one are plural by definition.

    – fdb
    Mar 11 at 13:14






  • 1





    @fdb, exactly, "zweier" is not nominative. But there is a nominative "Zweier" (different word...). You can buy a "Zweier BMW" which just means "the BMW which is labeled with the 2", not "a BMW which is shared between two people". You can pay with a "Zweier" (a coing with the "2 €" on it). I'd say "Vierergruppe" is then made from the Nominative/Substantive "Vierer", not a genetive of "Vier".

    – AnoE
    Mar 11 at 14:27










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3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes








3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









23














For me, "Viergruppe" sounds simply wrong, so I consider it a typo in the sources, you found.



As mentioned in the linked answer compositions of nouns in German may have a "Fugenlaut". For combinations of numbers and other nouns this is indeed the Fugenlaut "-er-", e. g.



  • Dreiergruppe

  • Vierergruppe

  • Fünfergruppe

and so on.






share|improve this answer




















  • 7





    Worth noting that the math text is in English and we can safely assume that "Viergruppe" is an invalid literal translation of "four group". The German text says "die andere Vierergruppe" referring to the "Viergruppe" mentioned before. "Andere" indicates that the intention was to use the same word, so that is a simple typo indeed.

    – Peter A. Schneider
    Mar 11 at 13:04












  • It is definitely "Vierergruppe" in the original: Vorlesungen über das Ikosaeder und die Auflösung der Gleichungen vom fünften Grade

    – Georg Patscheider
    2 days ago
















23














For me, "Viergruppe" sounds simply wrong, so I consider it a typo in the sources, you found.



As mentioned in the linked answer compositions of nouns in German may have a "Fugenlaut". For combinations of numbers and other nouns this is indeed the Fugenlaut "-er-", e. g.



  • Dreiergruppe

  • Vierergruppe

  • Fünfergruppe

and so on.






share|improve this answer




















  • 7





    Worth noting that the math text is in English and we can safely assume that "Viergruppe" is an invalid literal translation of "four group". The German text says "die andere Vierergruppe" referring to the "Viergruppe" mentioned before. "Andere" indicates that the intention was to use the same word, so that is a simple typo indeed.

    – Peter A. Schneider
    Mar 11 at 13:04












  • It is definitely "Vierergruppe" in the original: Vorlesungen über das Ikosaeder und die Auflösung der Gleichungen vom fünften Grade

    – Georg Patscheider
    2 days ago














23












23








23







For me, "Viergruppe" sounds simply wrong, so I consider it a typo in the sources, you found.



As mentioned in the linked answer compositions of nouns in German may have a "Fugenlaut". For combinations of numbers and other nouns this is indeed the Fugenlaut "-er-", e. g.



  • Dreiergruppe

  • Vierergruppe

  • Fünfergruppe

and so on.






share|improve this answer















For me, "Viergruppe" sounds simply wrong, so I consider it a typo in the sources, you found.



As mentioned in the linked answer compositions of nouns in German may have a "Fugenlaut". For combinations of numbers and other nouns this is indeed the Fugenlaut "-er-", e. g.



  • Dreiergruppe

  • Vierergruppe

  • Fünfergruppe

and so on.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Mar 11 at 9:33

























answered Mar 11 at 9:10









IQVIQV

10.2k2947




10.2k2947







  • 7





    Worth noting that the math text is in English and we can safely assume that "Viergruppe" is an invalid literal translation of "four group". The German text says "die andere Vierergruppe" referring to the "Viergruppe" mentioned before. "Andere" indicates that the intention was to use the same word, so that is a simple typo indeed.

    – Peter A. Schneider
    Mar 11 at 13:04












  • It is definitely "Vierergruppe" in the original: Vorlesungen über das Ikosaeder und die Auflösung der Gleichungen vom fünften Grade

    – Georg Patscheider
    2 days ago













  • 7





    Worth noting that the math text is in English and we can safely assume that "Viergruppe" is an invalid literal translation of "four group". The German text says "die andere Vierergruppe" referring to the "Viergruppe" mentioned before. "Andere" indicates that the intention was to use the same word, so that is a simple typo indeed.

    – Peter A. Schneider
    Mar 11 at 13:04












  • It is definitely "Vierergruppe" in the original: Vorlesungen über das Ikosaeder und die Auflösung der Gleichungen vom fünften Grade

    – Georg Patscheider
    2 days ago








7




7





Worth noting that the math text is in English and we can safely assume that "Viergruppe" is an invalid literal translation of "four group". The German text says "die andere Vierergruppe" referring to the "Viergruppe" mentioned before. "Andere" indicates that the intention was to use the same word, so that is a simple typo indeed.

– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 11 at 13:04






Worth noting that the math text is in English and we can safely assume that "Viergruppe" is an invalid literal translation of "four group". The German text says "die andere Vierergruppe" referring to the "Viergruppe" mentioned before. "Andere" indicates that the intention was to use the same word, so that is a simple typo indeed.

– Peter A. Schneider
Mar 11 at 13:04














It is definitely "Vierergruppe" in the original: Vorlesungen über das Ikosaeder und die Auflösung der Gleichungen vom fünften Grade

– Georg Patscheider
2 days ago






It is definitely "Vierergruppe" in the original: Vorlesungen über das Ikosaeder und die Auflösung der Gleichungen vom fünften Grade

– Georg Patscheider
2 days ago












7














First of all, note that compounds without -er (Einauge, Zweirad, Dreisatz, Dreiklang, Dreispitz, Vierauge, Fünfkampf) are more frequent than those with -er. I therefore assume compounds with -er have a narrower meaning.



This is borne out by the following observation. There are two ways to form number nouns: By way of zero derivation (feminine, die Eins, Zwei, Drei, etc.) or by adding -er (masculine, der Ein(s)er, Zweier, Dreier, etc.). The latter are more restricted than the former: They are mostly used to refer to grades (ein Fünfer/eine Fünf in Mathe) and money (Ich hab nur noch 'n Fünfer, einen Fünfeuroschein).



The pattern I can discern is that in compounds with -er, the number seems to refer to the internal structure of the object denoted by the head noun.




Zweierzimmer Zimmer mit zwei Betten (Swiss German)

Dreierbeziehung Beziehung zwischen drei Personen

Viererabteil Abteil für vier Personen

Viererpakt Pakt zwischen vier Parteien




Note that these compounds can sometimes be unpacked by adding a noun for the number to count. Then -er vanishes.




Zweibettzimmer, Vierpersonenabteil, Viermächtepakt




The examples you found look like mistakes to me; it should be Vierergruppe in all instances; this is the term Klein used. However, there seem to be some rare (!) cases of missing -er that look genuine. This dissertation from 1908 has Eins-, Zwei-, Drei-, Viergruppe. This could be related to the -er seen as a Fugenlaut and being stigmatized (there once was an attempt to change verfassungsgebend in the German constitution to verfassunggebend).



Having read the other answers to this question, I see that it is highly unclear what kind of -er this is: a nominal suffix, a genitive suffix or a Fugenlaut.






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    Also, in my experience with (older) maths books specifically, there do seem to be some weird nomenclatures around. I can't think of another example right now, but I would not be surprised if some mathematical book used "Viergruppe" consistently (although I would use "Vierergruppe" myself). Finally, what do you make of "Vierkant", "Viereck"... ;)

    – AnoE
    Mar 11 at 12:03











  • A Viereck has four corners, so the lack of -er isn't surprising. An interesting case could be Zwei(er)gespann, where the meaning would fit -er but the form without it occurs more frequently.

    – David Vogt
    Mar 11 at 12:33











  • Wiktionary notes that the noun Zweier (or Fünfer) referring to a grade is Austrian or perhaps Süddeutsch. Would you agree?

    – gerrit
    Mar 11 at 13:15











  • I grew up in Southern Germany and find Fünfer unremarkable. Now we need a Northerner's opinion :)

    – David Vogt
    Mar 11 at 13:23






  • 1





    @DavidVogt in the North, the grades are referenced as "Eins, Zwei, Drei,..", the Southern variant is extremely uncommon. Regarding the "Zweierzimmer": I once had an annoying experience with an Austrian innkeeper, who referred to his room number 6 as "das Sechserzimmer" on the phone, which I interpreted as "Sechsbettzimmer" (as would be the usual description). There were only 2 beds of course.

    – Chieron
    Mar 11 at 15:36















7














First of all, note that compounds without -er (Einauge, Zweirad, Dreisatz, Dreiklang, Dreispitz, Vierauge, Fünfkampf) are more frequent than those with -er. I therefore assume compounds with -er have a narrower meaning.



This is borne out by the following observation. There are two ways to form number nouns: By way of zero derivation (feminine, die Eins, Zwei, Drei, etc.) or by adding -er (masculine, der Ein(s)er, Zweier, Dreier, etc.). The latter are more restricted than the former: They are mostly used to refer to grades (ein Fünfer/eine Fünf in Mathe) and money (Ich hab nur noch 'n Fünfer, einen Fünfeuroschein).



The pattern I can discern is that in compounds with -er, the number seems to refer to the internal structure of the object denoted by the head noun.




Zweierzimmer Zimmer mit zwei Betten (Swiss German)

Dreierbeziehung Beziehung zwischen drei Personen

Viererabteil Abteil für vier Personen

Viererpakt Pakt zwischen vier Parteien




Note that these compounds can sometimes be unpacked by adding a noun for the number to count. Then -er vanishes.




Zweibettzimmer, Vierpersonenabteil, Viermächtepakt




The examples you found look like mistakes to me; it should be Vierergruppe in all instances; this is the term Klein used. However, there seem to be some rare (!) cases of missing -er that look genuine. This dissertation from 1908 has Eins-, Zwei-, Drei-, Viergruppe. This could be related to the -er seen as a Fugenlaut and being stigmatized (there once was an attempt to change verfassungsgebend in the German constitution to verfassunggebend).



Having read the other answers to this question, I see that it is highly unclear what kind of -er this is: a nominal suffix, a genitive suffix or a Fugenlaut.






share|improve this answer




















  • 1





    Also, in my experience with (older) maths books specifically, there do seem to be some weird nomenclatures around. I can't think of another example right now, but I would not be surprised if some mathematical book used "Viergruppe" consistently (although I would use "Vierergruppe" myself). Finally, what do you make of "Vierkant", "Viereck"... ;)

    – AnoE
    Mar 11 at 12:03











  • A Viereck has four corners, so the lack of -er isn't surprising. An interesting case could be Zwei(er)gespann, where the meaning would fit -er but the form without it occurs more frequently.

    – David Vogt
    Mar 11 at 12:33











  • Wiktionary notes that the noun Zweier (or Fünfer) referring to a grade is Austrian or perhaps Süddeutsch. Would you agree?

    – gerrit
    Mar 11 at 13:15











  • I grew up in Southern Germany and find Fünfer unremarkable. Now we need a Northerner's opinion :)

    – David Vogt
    Mar 11 at 13:23






  • 1





    @DavidVogt in the North, the grades are referenced as "Eins, Zwei, Drei,..", the Southern variant is extremely uncommon. Regarding the "Zweierzimmer": I once had an annoying experience with an Austrian innkeeper, who referred to his room number 6 as "das Sechserzimmer" on the phone, which I interpreted as "Sechsbettzimmer" (as would be the usual description). There were only 2 beds of course.

    – Chieron
    Mar 11 at 15:36













7












7








7







First of all, note that compounds without -er (Einauge, Zweirad, Dreisatz, Dreiklang, Dreispitz, Vierauge, Fünfkampf) are more frequent than those with -er. I therefore assume compounds with -er have a narrower meaning.



This is borne out by the following observation. There are two ways to form number nouns: By way of zero derivation (feminine, die Eins, Zwei, Drei, etc.) or by adding -er (masculine, der Ein(s)er, Zweier, Dreier, etc.). The latter are more restricted than the former: They are mostly used to refer to grades (ein Fünfer/eine Fünf in Mathe) and money (Ich hab nur noch 'n Fünfer, einen Fünfeuroschein).



The pattern I can discern is that in compounds with -er, the number seems to refer to the internal structure of the object denoted by the head noun.




Zweierzimmer Zimmer mit zwei Betten (Swiss German)

Dreierbeziehung Beziehung zwischen drei Personen

Viererabteil Abteil für vier Personen

Viererpakt Pakt zwischen vier Parteien




Note that these compounds can sometimes be unpacked by adding a noun for the number to count. Then -er vanishes.




Zweibettzimmer, Vierpersonenabteil, Viermächtepakt




The examples you found look like mistakes to me; it should be Vierergruppe in all instances; this is the term Klein used. However, there seem to be some rare (!) cases of missing -er that look genuine. This dissertation from 1908 has Eins-, Zwei-, Drei-, Viergruppe. This could be related to the -er seen as a Fugenlaut and being stigmatized (there once was an attempt to change verfassungsgebend in the German constitution to verfassunggebend).



Having read the other answers to this question, I see that it is highly unclear what kind of -er this is: a nominal suffix, a genitive suffix or a Fugenlaut.






share|improve this answer















First of all, note that compounds without -er (Einauge, Zweirad, Dreisatz, Dreiklang, Dreispitz, Vierauge, Fünfkampf) are more frequent than those with -er. I therefore assume compounds with -er have a narrower meaning.



This is borne out by the following observation. There are two ways to form number nouns: By way of zero derivation (feminine, die Eins, Zwei, Drei, etc.) or by adding -er (masculine, der Ein(s)er, Zweier, Dreier, etc.). The latter are more restricted than the former: They are mostly used to refer to grades (ein Fünfer/eine Fünf in Mathe) and money (Ich hab nur noch 'n Fünfer, einen Fünfeuroschein).



The pattern I can discern is that in compounds with -er, the number seems to refer to the internal structure of the object denoted by the head noun.




Zweierzimmer Zimmer mit zwei Betten (Swiss German)

Dreierbeziehung Beziehung zwischen drei Personen

Viererabteil Abteil für vier Personen

Viererpakt Pakt zwischen vier Parteien




Note that these compounds can sometimes be unpacked by adding a noun for the number to count. Then -er vanishes.




Zweibettzimmer, Vierpersonenabteil, Viermächtepakt




The examples you found look like mistakes to me; it should be Vierergruppe in all instances; this is the term Klein used. However, there seem to be some rare (!) cases of missing -er that look genuine. This dissertation from 1908 has Eins-, Zwei-, Drei-, Viergruppe. This could be related to the -er seen as a Fugenlaut and being stigmatized (there once was an attempt to change verfassungsgebend in the German constitution to verfassunggebend).



Having read the other answers to this question, I see that it is highly unclear what kind of -er this is: a nominal suffix, a genitive suffix or a Fugenlaut.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Mar 11 at 15:09

























answered Mar 11 at 10:15









David VogtDavid Vogt

3,775228




3,775228







  • 1





    Also, in my experience with (older) maths books specifically, there do seem to be some weird nomenclatures around. I can't think of another example right now, but I would not be surprised if some mathematical book used "Viergruppe" consistently (although I would use "Vierergruppe" myself). Finally, what do you make of "Vierkant", "Viereck"... ;)

    – AnoE
    Mar 11 at 12:03











  • A Viereck has four corners, so the lack of -er isn't surprising. An interesting case could be Zwei(er)gespann, where the meaning would fit -er but the form without it occurs more frequently.

    – David Vogt
    Mar 11 at 12:33











  • Wiktionary notes that the noun Zweier (or Fünfer) referring to a grade is Austrian or perhaps Süddeutsch. Would you agree?

    – gerrit
    Mar 11 at 13:15











  • I grew up in Southern Germany and find Fünfer unremarkable. Now we need a Northerner's opinion :)

    – David Vogt
    Mar 11 at 13:23






  • 1





    @DavidVogt in the North, the grades are referenced as "Eins, Zwei, Drei,..", the Southern variant is extremely uncommon. Regarding the "Zweierzimmer": I once had an annoying experience with an Austrian innkeeper, who referred to his room number 6 as "das Sechserzimmer" on the phone, which I interpreted as "Sechsbettzimmer" (as would be the usual description). There were only 2 beds of course.

    – Chieron
    Mar 11 at 15:36












  • 1





    Also, in my experience with (older) maths books specifically, there do seem to be some weird nomenclatures around. I can't think of another example right now, but I would not be surprised if some mathematical book used "Viergruppe" consistently (although I would use "Vierergruppe" myself). Finally, what do you make of "Vierkant", "Viereck"... ;)

    – AnoE
    Mar 11 at 12:03











  • A Viereck has four corners, so the lack of -er isn't surprising. An interesting case could be Zwei(er)gespann, where the meaning would fit -er but the form without it occurs more frequently.

    – David Vogt
    Mar 11 at 12:33











  • Wiktionary notes that the noun Zweier (or Fünfer) referring to a grade is Austrian or perhaps Süddeutsch. Would you agree?

    – gerrit
    Mar 11 at 13:15











  • I grew up in Southern Germany and find Fünfer unremarkable. Now we need a Northerner's opinion :)

    – David Vogt
    Mar 11 at 13:23






  • 1





    @DavidVogt in the North, the grades are referenced as "Eins, Zwei, Drei,..", the Southern variant is extremely uncommon. Regarding the "Zweierzimmer": I once had an annoying experience with an Austrian innkeeper, who referred to his room number 6 as "das Sechserzimmer" on the phone, which I interpreted as "Sechsbettzimmer" (as would be the usual description). There were only 2 beds of course.

    – Chieron
    Mar 11 at 15:36







1




1





Also, in my experience with (older) maths books specifically, there do seem to be some weird nomenclatures around. I can't think of another example right now, but I would not be surprised if some mathematical book used "Viergruppe" consistently (although I would use "Vierergruppe" myself). Finally, what do you make of "Vierkant", "Viereck"... ;)

– AnoE
Mar 11 at 12:03





Also, in my experience with (older) maths books specifically, there do seem to be some weird nomenclatures around. I can't think of another example right now, but I would not be surprised if some mathematical book used "Viergruppe" consistently (although I would use "Vierergruppe" myself). Finally, what do you make of "Vierkant", "Viereck"... ;)

– AnoE
Mar 11 at 12:03













A Viereck has four corners, so the lack of -er isn't surprising. An interesting case could be Zwei(er)gespann, where the meaning would fit -er but the form without it occurs more frequently.

– David Vogt
Mar 11 at 12:33





A Viereck has four corners, so the lack of -er isn't surprising. An interesting case could be Zwei(er)gespann, where the meaning would fit -er but the form without it occurs more frequently.

– David Vogt
Mar 11 at 12:33













Wiktionary notes that the noun Zweier (or Fünfer) referring to a grade is Austrian or perhaps Süddeutsch. Would you agree?

– gerrit
Mar 11 at 13:15





Wiktionary notes that the noun Zweier (or Fünfer) referring to a grade is Austrian or perhaps Süddeutsch. Would you agree?

– gerrit
Mar 11 at 13:15













I grew up in Southern Germany and find Fünfer unremarkable. Now we need a Northerner's opinion :)

– David Vogt
Mar 11 at 13:23





I grew up in Southern Germany and find Fünfer unremarkable. Now we need a Northerner's opinion :)

– David Vogt
Mar 11 at 13:23




1




1





@DavidVogt in the North, the grades are referenced as "Eins, Zwei, Drei,..", the Southern variant is extremely uncommon. Regarding the "Zweierzimmer": I once had an annoying experience with an Austrian innkeeper, who referred to his room number 6 as "das Sechserzimmer" on the phone, which I interpreted as "Sechsbettzimmer" (as would be the usual description). There were only 2 beds of course.

– Chieron
Mar 11 at 15:36





@DavidVogt in the North, the grades are referenced as "Eins, Zwei, Drei,..", the Southern variant is extremely uncommon. Regarding the "Zweierzimmer": I once had an annoying experience with an Austrian innkeeper, who referred to his room number 6 as "das Sechserzimmer" on the phone, which I interpreted as "Sechsbettzimmer" (as would be the usual description). There were only 2 beds of course.

– Chieron
Mar 11 at 15:36











5














Zweier, dreier, vierer ... are the genitive case of zwei, drei, vier... A "Vierergruppe" is a group of four. They can be used alone in phrases like "Streit zweier Parteien".






share|improve this answer


















  • 1





    "Zweier, dreier, vierer ... are the genitive case of zwei, drei, vier... " doesn't sound right to me. These are just straight nominatives as far as I can tell. "Der 3er BMW" has nothing to do with a Genetiv, it's just the masculine form of "3". Genetive would be "Des Dreiers" / "Des Vierers".

    – AnoE
    Mar 11 at 11:59












  • @AnoE. "Zweier" in "Streit zweier Parteien" is not nominative.

    – fdb
    Mar 11 at 12:34











  • It's the Genitiv Plural case, isn't it (Wiktionary Flexion:zwei)? Which begs the question: why the plural?

    – gerrit
    Mar 11 at 13:11







  • 2





    @gerrit. Numbers greater than one are plural by definition.

    – fdb
    Mar 11 at 13:14






  • 1





    @fdb, exactly, "zweier" is not nominative. But there is a nominative "Zweier" (different word...). You can buy a "Zweier BMW" which just means "the BMW which is labeled with the 2", not "a BMW which is shared between two people". You can pay with a "Zweier" (a coing with the "2 €" on it). I'd say "Vierergruppe" is then made from the Nominative/Substantive "Vierer", not a genetive of "Vier".

    – AnoE
    Mar 11 at 14:27















5














Zweier, dreier, vierer ... are the genitive case of zwei, drei, vier... A "Vierergruppe" is a group of four. They can be used alone in phrases like "Streit zweier Parteien".






share|improve this answer


















  • 1





    "Zweier, dreier, vierer ... are the genitive case of zwei, drei, vier... " doesn't sound right to me. These are just straight nominatives as far as I can tell. "Der 3er BMW" has nothing to do with a Genetiv, it's just the masculine form of "3". Genetive would be "Des Dreiers" / "Des Vierers".

    – AnoE
    Mar 11 at 11:59












  • @AnoE. "Zweier" in "Streit zweier Parteien" is not nominative.

    – fdb
    Mar 11 at 12:34











  • It's the Genitiv Plural case, isn't it (Wiktionary Flexion:zwei)? Which begs the question: why the plural?

    – gerrit
    Mar 11 at 13:11







  • 2





    @gerrit. Numbers greater than one are plural by definition.

    – fdb
    Mar 11 at 13:14






  • 1





    @fdb, exactly, "zweier" is not nominative. But there is a nominative "Zweier" (different word...). You can buy a "Zweier BMW" which just means "the BMW which is labeled with the 2", not "a BMW which is shared between two people". You can pay with a "Zweier" (a coing with the "2 €" on it). I'd say "Vierergruppe" is then made from the Nominative/Substantive "Vierer", not a genetive of "Vier".

    – AnoE
    Mar 11 at 14:27













5












5








5







Zweier, dreier, vierer ... are the genitive case of zwei, drei, vier... A "Vierergruppe" is a group of four. They can be used alone in phrases like "Streit zweier Parteien".






share|improve this answer













Zweier, dreier, vierer ... are the genitive case of zwei, drei, vier... A "Vierergruppe" is a group of four. They can be used alone in phrases like "Streit zweier Parteien".







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered Mar 11 at 9:40









fdbfdb

2,328512




2,328512







  • 1





    "Zweier, dreier, vierer ... are the genitive case of zwei, drei, vier... " doesn't sound right to me. These are just straight nominatives as far as I can tell. "Der 3er BMW" has nothing to do with a Genetiv, it's just the masculine form of "3". Genetive would be "Des Dreiers" / "Des Vierers".

    – AnoE
    Mar 11 at 11:59












  • @AnoE. "Zweier" in "Streit zweier Parteien" is not nominative.

    – fdb
    Mar 11 at 12:34











  • It's the Genitiv Plural case, isn't it (Wiktionary Flexion:zwei)? Which begs the question: why the plural?

    – gerrit
    Mar 11 at 13:11







  • 2





    @gerrit. Numbers greater than one are plural by definition.

    – fdb
    Mar 11 at 13:14






  • 1





    @fdb, exactly, "zweier" is not nominative. But there is a nominative "Zweier" (different word...). You can buy a "Zweier BMW" which just means "the BMW which is labeled with the 2", not "a BMW which is shared between two people". You can pay with a "Zweier" (a coing with the "2 €" on it). I'd say "Vierergruppe" is then made from the Nominative/Substantive "Vierer", not a genetive of "Vier".

    – AnoE
    Mar 11 at 14:27












  • 1





    "Zweier, dreier, vierer ... are the genitive case of zwei, drei, vier... " doesn't sound right to me. These are just straight nominatives as far as I can tell. "Der 3er BMW" has nothing to do with a Genetiv, it's just the masculine form of "3". Genetive would be "Des Dreiers" / "Des Vierers".

    – AnoE
    Mar 11 at 11:59












  • @AnoE. "Zweier" in "Streit zweier Parteien" is not nominative.

    – fdb
    Mar 11 at 12:34











  • It's the Genitiv Plural case, isn't it (Wiktionary Flexion:zwei)? Which begs the question: why the plural?

    – gerrit
    Mar 11 at 13:11







  • 2





    @gerrit. Numbers greater than one are plural by definition.

    – fdb
    Mar 11 at 13:14






  • 1





    @fdb, exactly, "zweier" is not nominative. But there is a nominative "Zweier" (different word...). You can buy a "Zweier BMW" which just means "the BMW which is labeled with the 2", not "a BMW which is shared between two people". You can pay with a "Zweier" (a coing with the "2 €" on it). I'd say "Vierergruppe" is then made from the Nominative/Substantive "Vierer", not a genetive of "Vier".

    – AnoE
    Mar 11 at 14:27







1




1





"Zweier, dreier, vierer ... are the genitive case of zwei, drei, vier... " doesn't sound right to me. These are just straight nominatives as far as I can tell. "Der 3er BMW" has nothing to do with a Genetiv, it's just the masculine form of "3". Genetive would be "Des Dreiers" / "Des Vierers".

– AnoE
Mar 11 at 11:59






"Zweier, dreier, vierer ... are the genitive case of zwei, drei, vier... " doesn't sound right to me. These are just straight nominatives as far as I can tell. "Der 3er BMW" has nothing to do with a Genetiv, it's just the masculine form of "3". Genetive would be "Des Dreiers" / "Des Vierers".

– AnoE
Mar 11 at 11:59














@AnoE. "Zweier" in "Streit zweier Parteien" is not nominative.

– fdb
Mar 11 at 12:34





@AnoE. "Zweier" in "Streit zweier Parteien" is not nominative.

– fdb
Mar 11 at 12:34













It's the Genitiv Plural case, isn't it (Wiktionary Flexion:zwei)? Which begs the question: why the plural?

– gerrit
Mar 11 at 13:11






It's the Genitiv Plural case, isn't it (Wiktionary Flexion:zwei)? Which begs the question: why the plural?

– gerrit
Mar 11 at 13:11





2




2





@gerrit. Numbers greater than one are plural by definition.

– fdb
Mar 11 at 13:14





@gerrit. Numbers greater than one are plural by definition.

– fdb
Mar 11 at 13:14




1




1





@fdb, exactly, "zweier" is not nominative. But there is a nominative "Zweier" (different word...). You can buy a "Zweier BMW" which just means "the BMW which is labeled with the 2", not "a BMW which is shared between two people". You can pay with a "Zweier" (a coing with the "2 €" on it). I'd say "Vierergruppe" is then made from the Nominative/Substantive "Vierer", not a genetive of "Vier".

– AnoE
Mar 11 at 14:27





@fdb, exactly, "zweier" is not nominative. But there is a nominative "Zweier" (different word...). You can buy a "Zweier BMW" which just means "the BMW which is labeled with the 2", not "a BMW which is shared between two people". You can pay with a "Zweier" (a coing with the "2 €" on it). I'd say "Vierergruppe" is then made from the Nominative/Substantive "Vierer", not a genetive of "Vier".

– AnoE
Mar 11 at 14:27










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