Getting different answers for same problem on divergence and curl. The Next CEO of Stack OverflowWhy is $det(vecA,vecB) = |vecA times vecB|$?If $f(x)f(y)=f(sqrtx^2+y^2)$ how to find $f(x)$homogeneous linear systemHow to calculate one of the vectors that generate a given cross-product?What is the method for finding the reciprocal lattice vectors in this 2D lattice?How do i conclude that my system of equations has a unique solution? And aplications of Lagrange identityMethod for solving system of linear equationsDivergence in Spherical & Cylindrical Polar co-ordinates derivationShow that $nabla times (vec c psi)= nabla psi times vec c=-vec c times nabla psi$, for constant vector $vec c$ and scalar field $psi$Validity of axes renaming

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Getting different answers for same problem on divergence and curl.



The Next CEO of Stack OverflowWhy is $det(vecA,vecB) = |vecA times vecB|$?If $f(x)f(y)=f(sqrtx^2+y^2)$ how to find $f(x)$homogeneous linear systemHow to calculate one of the vectors that generate a given cross-product?What is the method for finding the reciprocal lattice vectors in this 2D lattice?How do i conclude that my system of equations has a unique solution? And aplications of Lagrange identityMethod for solving system of linear equationsDivergence in Spherical & Cylindrical Polar co-ordinates derivationShow that $nabla times (vec c psi)= nabla psi times vec c=-vec c times nabla psi$, for constant vector $vec c$ and scalar field $psi$Validity of axes renaming










0












$begingroup$


Given that $veca$ is a constant vector and $vecr$ is a position vector.



We are asked to prove the following:
$$nablatimes(vecatimesvecr)=2veca$$
I tried two ways. Could prove it from one method but from another I am getting another result.



$$rule20cm0.4pt$$



1st method(with correct result):



$$LHS=nablatimes(vecatimesvecr)$$
Let $veca=a_1hati+a_2hatj+a_3hatk ,,$ and $,,vecr=xhati+yhatj+zhatk,$ where $a_1,a_2,a_3$ are constants and $x,y,z$ is any arbitrary point.



$$Simplifying,,,, (vecatimesvecr)$$



$$=beginvmatrixhati & hatj & hatk \ a_1 & a_2 & a_3 \ x & y & zendvmatrix$$
$$=hati(a_2z-a_3y)+hatj(a_3x-a_1z)+hatk(a_1y-a_2x)$$



Now performing the curl operation on the simplified result we obtained.
$$=nablatimes(simplified,result)$$
$$=beginvmatrixhati & hatj & hatk \ fracpartialpartial x &fracpartialpartial y & fracpartialpartial z \ a_2z-a_3y & a_3x-a_1z & a_1y-a_2xendvmatrix$$



$$=2a_1xhati+2a_2yhatj+2a_3zhatk$$
$$=2veca$$
$$=RHS$$
$$rule20cm0.4pt$$
2nd method with incorrect result.



We know that $$nablatimes(vecatimesvecr)=2[(nabla.vecr)veca-(nabla.veca)vecr]$$



Solving RHS,



$$Also,nabla.vecr=3,and, nabla.veca=0$$
$$=2[3veca-0vecr]$$
$$=6veca$$
which is incorrect. Where did I make mistake in this method?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Check the curl identity: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curl_(mathematics)#Identities
    $endgroup$
    – K_inverse
    Mar 19 at 11:08















0












$begingroup$


Given that $veca$ is a constant vector and $vecr$ is a position vector.



We are asked to prove the following:
$$nablatimes(vecatimesvecr)=2veca$$
I tried two ways. Could prove it from one method but from another I am getting another result.



$$rule20cm0.4pt$$



1st method(with correct result):



$$LHS=nablatimes(vecatimesvecr)$$
Let $veca=a_1hati+a_2hatj+a_3hatk ,,$ and $,,vecr=xhati+yhatj+zhatk,$ where $a_1,a_2,a_3$ are constants and $x,y,z$ is any arbitrary point.



$$Simplifying,,,, (vecatimesvecr)$$



$$=beginvmatrixhati & hatj & hatk \ a_1 & a_2 & a_3 \ x & y & zendvmatrix$$
$$=hati(a_2z-a_3y)+hatj(a_3x-a_1z)+hatk(a_1y-a_2x)$$



Now performing the curl operation on the simplified result we obtained.
$$=nablatimes(simplified,result)$$
$$=beginvmatrixhati & hatj & hatk \ fracpartialpartial x &fracpartialpartial y & fracpartialpartial z \ a_2z-a_3y & a_3x-a_1z & a_1y-a_2xendvmatrix$$



$$=2a_1xhati+2a_2yhatj+2a_3zhatk$$
$$=2veca$$
$$=RHS$$
$$rule20cm0.4pt$$
2nd method with incorrect result.



We know that $$nablatimes(vecatimesvecr)=2[(nabla.vecr)veca-(nabla.veca)vecr]$$



Solving RHS,



$$Also,nabla.vecr=3,and, nabla.veca=0$$
$$=2[3veca-0vecr]$$
$$=6veca$$
which is incorrect. Where did I make mistake in this method?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$











  • $begingroup$
    Check the curl identity: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curl_(mathematics)#Identities
    $endgroup$
    – K_inverse
    Mar 19 at 11:08













0












0








0





$begingroup$


Given that $veca$ is a constant vector and $vecr$ is a position vector.



We are asked to prove the following:
$$nablatimes(vecatimesvecr)=2veca$$
I tried two ways. Could prove it from one method but from another I am getting another result.



$$rule20cm0.4pt$$



1st method(with correct result):



$$LHS=nablatimes(vecatimesvecr)$$
Let $veca=a_1hati+a_2hatj+a_3hatk ,,$ and $,,vecr=xhati+yhatj+zhatk,$ where $a_1,a_2,a_3$ are constants and $x,y,z$ is any arbitrary point.



$$Simplifying,,,, (vecatimesvecr)$$



$$=beginvmatrixhati & hatj & hatk \ a_1 & a_2 & a_3 \ x & y & zendvmatrix$$
$$=hati(a_2z-a_3y)+hatj(a_3x-a_1z)+hatk(a_1y-a_2x)$$



Now performing the curl operation on the simplified result we obtained.
$$=nablatimes(simplified,result)$$
$$=beginvmatrixhati & hatj & hatk \ fracpartialpartial x &fracpartialpartial y & fracpartialpartial z \ a_2z-a_3y & a_3x-a_1z & a_1y-a_2xendvmatrix$$



$$=2a_1xhati+2a_2yhatj+2a_3zhatk$$
$$=2veca$$
$$=RHS$$
$$rule20cm0.4pt$$
2nd method with incorrect result.



We know that $$nablatimes(vecatimesvecr)=2[(nabla.vecr)veca-(nabla.veca)vecr]$$



Solving RHS,



$$Also,nabla.vecr=3,and, nabla.veca=0$$
$$=2[3veca-0vecr]$$
$$=6veca$$
which is incorrect. Where did I make mistake in this method?










share|cite|improve this question









$endgroup$




Given that $veca$ is a constant vector and $vecr$ is a position vector.



We are asked to prove the following:
$$nablatimes(vecatimesvecr)=2veca$$
I tried two ways. Could prove it from one method but from another I am getting another result.



$$rule20cm0.4pt$$



1st method(with correct result):



$$LHS=nablatimes(vecatimesvecr)$$
Let $veca=a_1hati+a_2hatj+a_3hatk ,,$ and $,,vecr=xhati+yhatj+zhatk,$ where $a_1,a_2,a_3$ are constants and $x,y,z$ is any arbitrary point.



$$Simplifying,,,, (vecatimesvecr)$$



$$=beginvmatrixhati & hatj & hatk \ a_1 & a_2 & a_3 \ x & y & zendvmatrix$$
$$=hati(a_2z-a_3y)+hatj(a_3x-a_1z)+hatk(a_1y-a_2x)$$



Now performing the curl operation on the simplified result we obtained.
$$=nablatimes(simplified,result)$$
$$=beginvmatrixhati & hatj & hatk \ fracpartialpartial x &fracpartialpartial y & fracpartialpartial z \ a_2z-a_3y & a_3x-a_1z & a_1y-a_2xendvmatrix$$



$$=2a_1xhati+2a_2yhatj+2a_3zhatk$$
$$=2veca$$
$$=RHS$$
$$rule20cm0.4pt$$
2nd method with incorrect result.



We know that $$nablatimes(vecatimesvecr)=2[(nabla.vecr)veca-(nabla.veca)vecr]$$



Solving RHS,



$$Also,nabla.vecr=3,and, nabla.veca=0$$
$$=2[3veca-0vecr]$$
$$=6veca$$
which is incorrect. Where did I make mistake in this method?







calculus linear-algebra vectors divergence curl






share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question











share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question










asked Mar 19 at 11:02









Abbas MiyaAbbas Miya

16211




16211











  • $begingroup$
    Check the curl identity: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curl_(mathematics)#Identities
    $endgroup$
    – K_inverse
    Mar 19 at 11:08
















  • $begingroup$
    Check the curl identity: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curl_(mathematics)#Identities
    $endgroup$
    – K_inverse
    Mar 19 at 11:08















$begingroup$
Check the curl identity: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curl_(mathematics)#Identities
$endgroup$
– K_inverse
Mar 19 at 11:08




$begingroup$
Check the curl identity: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curl_(mathematics)#Identities
$endgroup$
– K_inverse
Mar 19 at 11:08










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















1












$begingroup$

The "vector calculus identity" you use in your second calculation is just false. You actually have
beginalign*
nabla times (veca times vecr) &= veca(nabla cdot vecr) - vecr(nabla cdot veca) + (vecr cdot nabla)veca - (veca cdot nabla) vecr \
&=
veca(nabla cdot vecr) - (veca cdot nabla) vecr.
endalign*

As you say, the first term on the RHS is then $3 veca$, but we need to calculate the other term. It is just the directional derivative of $vecr$ in the direction of $veca$ multiplied by the magnitude of $veca$, so this is just $veca$. Thus
$$
nabla times (veca times vecr) = 3 veca - veca = 2 veca,
$$

as desired.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    photos.app.goo.gl/71CHGVa9Hkt2U7Hk8 is the proof for identity I have used.
    $endgroup$
    – Abbas Miya
    Mar 19 at 11:17










  • $begingroup$
    @AbbasMiya I can't see the image---you can just add it to your question.
    $endgroup$
    – Keeley Hoek
    Mar 19 at 11:30










  • $begingroup$
    But at any rate, the mistake must be there.
    $endgroup$
    – Keeley Hoek
    Mar 19 at 11:30










  • $begingroup$
    I am sorry for the link, it is fine now, you can see the picture.
    $endgroup$
    – Abbas Miya
    Mar 19 at 11:32










  • $begingroup$
    @AbbasMiya That "simplification" of the identity in red is not correct. The confusion seems to be that $veca cdot nabla$ does not equal $nabla cdot veca$, for example. Instead $veca cdot nabla$ is an operator which differentates in the $veca$ direction and then multiplies by the magnitude of $veca$. On the other hand, $nabla cdot veca$ is just a number (and in your case it is zero).
    $endgroup$
    – Keeley Hoek
    Mar 19 at 11:36












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1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









1












$begingroup$

The "vector calculus identity" you use in your second calculation is just false. You actually have
beginalign*
nabla times (veca times vecr) &= veca(nabla cdot vecr) - vecr(nabla cdot veca) + (vecr cdot nabla)veca - (veca cdot nabla) vecr \
&=
veca(nabla cdot vecr) - (veca cdot nabla) vecr.
endalign*

As you say, the first term on the RHS is then $3 veca$, but we need to calculate the other term. It is just the directional derivative of $vecr$ in the direction of $veca$ multiplied by the magnitude of $veca$, so this is just $veca$. Thus
$$
nabla times (veca times vecr) = 3 veca - veca = 2 veca,
$$

as desired.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    photos.app.goo.gl/71CHGVa9Hkt2U7Hk8 is the proof for identity I have used.
    $endgroup$
    – Abbas Miya
    Mar 19 at 11:17










  • $begingroup$
    @AbbasMiya I can't see the image---you can just add it to your question.
    $endgroup$
    – Keeley Hoek
    Mar 19 at 11:30










  • $begingroup$
    But at any rate, the mistake must be there.
    $endgroup$
    – Keeley Hoek
    Mar 19 at 11:30










  • $begingroup$
    I am sorry for the link, it is fine now, you can see the picture.
    $endgroup$
    – Abbas Miya
    Mar 19 at 11:32










  • $begingroup$
    @AbbasMiya That "simplification" of the identity in red is not correct. The confusion seems to be that $veca cdot nabla$ does not equal $nabla cdot veca$, for example. Instead $veca cdot nabla$ is an operator which differentates in the $veca$ direction and then multiplies by the magnitude of $veca$. On the other hand, $nabla cdot veca$ is just a number (and in your case it is zero).
    $endgroup$
    – Keeley Hoek
    Mar 19 at 11:36
















1












$begingroup$

The "vector calculus identity" you use in your second calculation is just false. You actually have
beginalign*
nabla times (veca times vecr) &= veca(nabla cdot vecr) - vecr(nabla cdot veca) + (vecr cdot nabla)veca - (veca cdot nabla) vecr \
&=
veca(nabla cdot vecr) - (veca cdot nabla) vecr.
endalign*

As you say, the first term on the RHS is then $3 veca$, but we need to calculate the other term. It is just the directional derivative of $vecr$ in the direction of $veca$ multiplied by the magnitude of $veca$, so this is just $veca$. Thus
$$
nabla times (veca times vecr) = 3 veca - veca = 2 veca,
$$

as desired.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$












  • $begingroup$
    photos.app.goo.gl/71CHGVa9Hkt2U7Hk8 is the proof for identity I have used.
    $endgroup$
    – Abbas Miya
    Mar 19 at 11:17










  • $begingroup$
    @AbbasMiya I can't see the image---you can just add it to your question.
    $endgroup$
    – Keeley Hoek
    Mar 19 at 11:30










  • $begingroup$
    But at any rate, the mistake must be there.
    $endgroup$
    – Keeley Hoek
    Mar 19 at 11:30










  • $begingroup$
    I am sorry for the link, it is fine now, you can see the picture.
    $endgroup$
    – Abbas Miya
    Mar 19 at 11:32










  • $begingroup$
    @AbbasMiya That "simplification" of the identity in red is not correct. The confusion seems to be that $veca cdot nabla$ does not equal $nabla cdot veca$, for example. Instead $veca cdot nabla$ is an operator which differentates in the $veca$ direction and then multiplies by the magnitude of $veca$. On the other hand, $nabla cdot veca$ is just a number (and in your case it is zero).
    $endgroup$
    – Keeley Hoek
    Mar 19 at 11:36














1












1








1





$begingroup$

The "vector calculus identity" you use in your second calculation is just false. You actually have
beginalign*
nabla times (veca times vecr) &= veca(nabla cdot vecr) - vecr(nabla cdot veca) + (vecr cdot nabla)veca - (veca cdot nabla) vecr \
&=
veca(nabla cdot vecr) - (veca cdot nabla) vecr.
endalign*

As you say, the first term on the RHS is then $3 veca$, but we need to calculate the other term. It is just the directional derivative of $vecr$ in the direction of $veca$ multiplied by the magnitude of $veca$, so this is just $veca$. Thus
$$
nabla times (veca times vecr) = 3 veca - veca = 2 veca,
$$

as desired.






share|cite|improve this answer









$endgroup$



The "vector calculus identity" you use in your second calculation is just false. You actually have
beginalign*
nabla times (veca times vecr) &= veca(nabla cdot vecr) - vecr(nabla cdot veca) + (vecr cdot nabla)veca - (veca cdot nabla) vecr \
&=
veca(nabla cdot vecr) - (veca cdot nabla) vecr.
endalign*

As you say, the first term on the RHS is then $3 veca$, but we need to calculate the other term. It is just the directional derivative of $vecr$ in the direction of $veca$ multiplied by the magnitude of $veca$, so this is just $veca$. Thus
$$
nabla times (veca times vecr) = 3 veca - veca = 2 veca,
$$

as desired.







share|cite|improve this answer












share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer










answered Mar 19 at 11:14









Keeley HoekKeeley Hoek

829




829











  • $begingroup$
    photos.app.goo.gl/71CHGVa9Hkt2U7Hk8 is the proof for identity I have used.
    $endgroup$
    – Abbas Miya
    Mar 19 at 11:17










  • $begingroup$
    @AbbasMiya I can't see the image---you can just add it to your question.
    $endgroup$
    – Keeley Hoek
    Mar 19 at 11:30










  • $begingroup$
    But at any rate, the mistake must be there.
    $endgroup$
    – Keeley Hoek
    Mar 19 at 11:30










  • $begingroup$
    I am sorry for the link, it is fine now, you can see the picture.
    $endgroup$
    – Abbas Miya
    Mar 19 at 11:32










  • $begingroup$
    @AbbasMiya That "simplification" of the identity in red is not correct. The confusion seems to be that $veca cdot nabla$ does not equal $nabla cdot veca$, for example. Instead $veca cdot nabla$ is an operator which differentates in the $veca$ direction and then multiplies by the magnitude of $veca$. On the other hand, $nabla cdot veca$ is just a number (and in your case it is zero).
    $endgroup$
    – Keeley Hoek
    Mar 19 at 11:36

















  • $begingroup$
    photos.app.goo.gl/71CHGVa9Hkt2U7Hk8 is the proof for identity I have used.
    $endgroup$
    – Abbas Miya
    Mar 19 at 11:17










  • $begingroup$
    @AbbasMiya I can't see the image---you can just add it to your question.
    $endgroup$
    – Keeley Hoek
    Mar 19 at 11:30










  • $begingroup$
    But at any rate, the mistake must be there.
    $endgroup$
    – Keeley Hoek
    Mar 19 at 11:30










  • $begingroup$
    I am sorry for the link, it is fine now, you can see the picture.
    $endgroup$
    – Abbas Miya
    Mar 19 at 11:32










  • $begingroup$
    @AbbasMiya That "simplification" of the identity in red is not correct. The confusion seems to be that $veca cdot nabla$ does not equal $nabla cdot veca$, for example. Instead $veca cdot nabla$ is an operator which differentates in the $veca$ direction and then multiplies by the magnitude of $veca$. On the other hand, $nabla cdot veca$ is just a number (and in your case it is zero).
    $endgroup$
    – Keeley Hoek
    Mar 19 at 11:36
















$begingroup$
photos.app.goo.gl/71CHGVa9Hkt2U7Hk8 is the proof for identity I have used.
$endgroup$
– Abbas Miya
Mar 19 at 11:17




$begingroup$
photos.app.goo.gl/71CHGVa9Hkt2U7Hk8 is the proof for identity I have used.
$endgroup$
– Abbas Miya
Mar 19 at 11:17












$begingroup$
@AbbasMiya I can't see the image---you can just add it to your question.
$endgroup$
– Keeley Hoek
Mar 19 at 11:30




$begingroup$
@AbbasMiya I can't see the image---you can just add it to your question.
$endgroup$
– Keeley Hoek
Mar 19 at 11:30












$begingroup$
But at any rate, the mistake must be there.
$endgroup$
– Keeley Hoek
Mar 19 at 11:30




$begingroup$
But at any rate, the mistake must be there.
$endgroup$
– Keeley Hoek
Mar 19 at 11:30












$begingroup$
I am sorry for the link, it is fine now, you can see the picture.
$endgroup$
– Abbas Miya
Mar 19 at 11:32




$begingroup$
I am sorry for the link, it is fine now, you can see the picture.
$endgroup$
– Abbas Miya
Mar 19 at 11:32












$begingroup$
@AbbasMiya That "simplification" of the identity in red is not correct. The confusion seems to be that $veca cdot nabla$ does not equal $nabla cdot veca$, for example. Instead $veca cdot nabla$ is an operator which differentates in the $veca$ direction and then multiplies by the magnitude of $veca$. On the other hand, $nabla cdot veca$ is just a number (and in your case it is zero).
$endgroup$
– Keeley Hoek
Mar 19 at 11:36





$begingroup$
@AbbasMiya That "simplification" of the identity in red is not correct. The confusion seems to be that $veca cdot nabla$ does not equal $nabla cdot veca$, for example. Instead $veca cdot nabla$ is an operator which differentates in the $veca$ direction and then multiplies by the magnitude of $veca$. On the other hand, $nabla cdot veca$ is just a number (and in your case it is zero).
$endgroup$
– Keeley Hoek
Mar 19 at 11:36


















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