Can the harmonic series explain the origin of the major scale? Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)The major scale - why and how?What are the actual notes of each natural harmonic?Is it possible to create the illusion of a sub-harmonic?Where is a natural harmonic for the note C on guitar?Why Is Just Intonation Impractical?How often does each interval appear in the harmonic series (relative to the fundamental)?How does the harmonic series affect consonance?How to understand a minor chord using the harmonic series?In a musical note (A for an example) are all the other frequencies harmonic?Why do we scale/shift up an octave in the overtone series?Why is the Major-Minor Scale unused?

Add Help Menu entry in QGIS 3 from `startup.py`

How to say 'striped' in Latin

How to define a unique height of subscript and superscript indices?

How can players work together to take actions that are otherwise impossible?

grandmas drink with lemon juice

New Order #5: where Fibonacci and Beatty meet at Wythoff

What's the point in a preamp?

Spatial joining two line layers and checking intersection in PostgreSQL/PostGIS

What would be Julian Assange's expected punishment, on the current English criminal law?

Cold is to Refrigerator as warm is to?

Fishing simulator

How widely used is the term Treppenwitz? Is it something that most Germans know?

Can rocky hills similar to the Scottish highlands be located next to a bog?

Can I add database to AWS RDS MySQL without creating new instance?

Why I can't insert a picture into database?

Can I throw a longsword at someone?

Binary strings such that the sum of 0's is not equal to twice the sum of 1's

What causes the vertical black lines in my photo?

Is there a service that would inform me whenever a new direct route is scheduled from a given airport?

Are variable time comparisons always a security risk in cryptography code?

What's the purpose of writing one's academic bio in 3rd person?

Estimate capacitor parameters

How to market an anarchic city as a tourism spot to people living in civilized areas?

How do I keep my slimes from escaping their pens?



Can the harmonic series explain the origin of the major scale?



Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)The major scale - why and how?What are the actual notes of each natural harmonic?Is it possible to create the illusion of a sub-harmonic?Where is a natural harmonic for the note C on guitar?Why Is Just Intonation Impractical?How often does each interval appear in the harmonic series (relative to the fundamental)?How does the harmonic series affect consonance?How to understand a minor chord using the harmonic series?In a musical note (A for an example) are all the other frequencies harmonic?Why do we scale/shift up an octave in the overtone series?Why is the Major-Minor Scale unused?










12















This Wikipedia article is the source for two overtone series charts...



enter image description here




The numbers above the harmonic indicate the number of cents' difference from equal temperament (rounded to the nearest cent).




enter image description here



  • Regarding harmonic 11, is it a 'out of tune' Gb or an F?

  • Am I reading the charts correctly that there is no A natural in the series?

If I understood this article about cents, -49 on harmonic 11 is about 1/4 step - enough to be a horribly out of tune P4 - and -12 on harmonic 15 may drift past the threshold of perceptible depending on the person and the exactly sound context (it may be close enough.) Roughly the same for harmonic 5 as 15.



So the resulting major scale (based on these very weak harmonics) will have FA horribly out of tune, and MI and TI questionable.



Why would anyone use the harmonic series to explain the origin of the major scale with such bad tuning?



Based on the strength of the overtones the major triad is supported by the series. But the next strongest thing is a diminished triad! Past that everything is weak and out of tune!










share|improve this question

















  • 1





    @topomorto, the accepted answer here music.stackexchange.com/questions/8173/… is what prompted my question

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 25 at 20:49






  • 1





    Ok, comments to the contrary. I guess I;m more concerned about the +19 votes and accepted answer. That's a pretty strong affirmation by this forum for something that is on theoretically shaky ground.

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 25 at 21:04






  • 1





    now it's only +18

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 25 at 21:04






  • 1





    THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN. WE MUST RESPECT THEIR VOTE. FAILING TO DO SO WOULD BE A BETRAYAL OF DEMOCRACY. (sorry if this humor doesn't work outside the UK ;). Anyway +1 from me :)

    – topo morto
    Mar 25 at 21:10






  • 1





    @ topo morto: When I met the first time SE 3 months ago and I told my friends about it they were just laughing and mentioning exactly this point :) but this site here is even better than “parentology”, “german language” and some others I have seen.

    – Albrecht Hügli
    Mar 25 at 23:07















12















This Wikipedia article is the source for two overtone series charts...



enter image description here




The numbers above the harmonic indicate the number of cents' difference from equal temperament (rounded to the nearest cent).




enter image description here



  • Regarding harmonic 11, is it a 'out of tune' Gb or an F?

  • Am I reading the charts correctly that there is no A natural in the series?

If I understood this article about cents, -49 on harmonic 11 is about 1/4 step - enough to be a horribly out of tune P4 - and -12 on harmonic 15 may drift past the threshold of perceptible depending on the person and the exactly sound context (it may be close enough.) Roughly the same for harmonic 5 as 15.



So the resulting major scale (based on these very weak harmonics) will have FA horribly out of tune, and MI and TI questionable.



Why would anyone use the harmonic series to explain the origin of the major scale with such bad tuning?



Based on the strength of the overtones the major triad is supported by the series. But the next strongest thing is a diminished triad! Past that everything is weak and out of tune!










share|improve this question

















  • 1





    @topomorto, the accepted answer here music.stackexchange.com/questions/8173/… is what prompted my question

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 25 at 20:49






  • 1





    Ok, comments to the contrary. I guess I;m more concerned about the +19 votes and accepted answer. That's a pretty strong affirmation by this forum for something that is on theoretically shaky ground.

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 25 at 21:04






  • 1





    now it's only +18

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 25 at 21:04






  • 1





    THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN. WE MUST RESPECT THEIR VOTE. FAILING TO DO SO WOULD BE A BETRAYAL OF DEMOCRACY. (sorry if this humor doesn't work outside the UK ;). Anyway +1 from me :)

    – topo morto
    Mar 25 at 21:10






  • 1





    @ topo morto: When I met the first time SE 3 months ago and I told my friends about it they were just laughing and mentioning exactly this point :) but this site here is even better than “parentology”, “german language” and some others I have seen.

    – Albrecht Hügli
    Mar 25 at 23:07













12












12








12


2






This Wikipedia article is the source for two overtone series charts...



enter image description here




The numbers above the harmonic indicate the number of cents' difference from equal temperament (rounded to the nearest cent).




enter image description here



  • Regarding harmonic 11, is it a 'out of tune' Gb or an F?

  • Am I reading the charts correctly that there is no A natural in the series?

If I understood this article about cents, -49 on harmonic 11 is about 1/4 step - enough to be a horribly out of tune P4 - and -12 on harmonic 15 may drift past the threshold of perceptible depending on the person and the exactly sound context (it may be close enough.) Roughly the same for harmonic 5 as 15.



So the resulting major scale (based on these very weak harmonics) will have FA horribly out of tune, and MI and TI questionable.



Why would anyone use the harmonic series to explain the origin of the major scale with such bad tuning?



Based on the strength of the overtones the major triad is supported by the series. But the next strongest thing is a diminished triad! Past that everything is weak and out of tune!










share|improve this question














This Wikipedia article is the source for two overtone series charts...



enter image description here




The numbers above the harmonic indicate the number of cents' difference from equal temperament (rounded to the nearest cent).




enter image description here



  • Regarding harmonic 11, is it a 'out of tune' Gb or an F?

  • Am I reading the charts correctly that there is no A natural in the series?

If I understood this article about cents, -49 on harmonic 11 is about 1/4 step - enough to be a horribly out of tune P4 - and -12 on harmonic 15 may drift past the threshold of perceptible depending on the person and the exactly sound context (it may be close enough.) Roughly the same for harmonic 5 as 15.



So the resulting major scale (based on these very weak harmonics) will have FA horribly out of tune, and MI and TI questionable.



Why would anyone use the harmonic series to explain the origin of the major scale with such bad tuning?



Based on the strength of the overtones the major triad is supported by the series. But the next strongest thing is a diminished triad! Past that everything is weak and out of tune!







harmonics






share|improve this question













share|improve this question











share|improve this question




share|improve this question










asked Mar 25 at 19:35









Michael CurtisMichael Curtis

12k744




12k744







  • 1





    @topomorto, the accepted answer here music.stackexchange.com/questions/8173/… is what prompted my question

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 25 at 20:49






  • 1





    Ok, comments to the contrary. I guess I;m more concerned about the +19 votes and accepted answer. That's a pretty strong affirmation by this forum for something that is on theoretically shaky ground.

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 25 at 21:04






  • 1





    now it's only +18

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 25 at 21:04






  • 1





    THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN. WE MUST RESPECT THEIR VOTE. FAILING TO DO SO WOULD BE A BETRAYAL OF DEMOCRACY. (sorry if this humor doesn't work outside the UK ;). Anyway +1 from me :)

    – topo morto
    Mar 25 at 21:10






  • 1





    @ topo morto: When I met the first time SE 3 months ago and I told my friends about it they were just laughing and mentioning exactly this point :) but this site here is even better than “parentology”, “german language” and some others I have seen.

    – Albrecht Hügli
    Mar 25 at 23:07












  • 1





    @topomorto, the accepted answer here music.stackexchange.com/questions/8173/… is what prompted my question

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 25 at 20:49






  • 1





    Ok, comments to the contrary. I guess I;m more concerned about the +19 votes and accepted answer. That's a pretty strong affirmation by this forum for something that is on theoretically shaky ground.

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 25 at 21:04






  • 1





    now it's only +18

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 25 at 21:04






  • 1





    THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN. WE MUST RESPECT THEIR VOTE. FAILING TO DO SO WOULD BE A BETRAYAL OF DEMOCRACY. (sorry if this humor doesn't work outside the UK ;). Anyway +1 from me :)

    – topo morto
    Mar 25 at 21:10






  • 1





    @ topo morto: When I met the first time SE 3 months ago and I told my friends about it they were just laughing and mentioning exactly this point :) but this site here is even better than “parentology”, “german language” and some others I have seen.

    – Albrecht Hügli
    Mar 25 at 23:07







1




1





@topomorto, the accepted answer here music.stackexchange.com/questions/8173/… is what prompted my question

– Michael Curtis
Mar 25 at 20:49





@topomorto, the accepted answer here music.stackexchange.com/questions/8173/… is what prompted my question

– Michael Curtis
Mar 25 at 20:49




1




1





Ok, comments to the contrary. I guess I;m more concerned about the +19 votes and accepted answer. That's a pretty strong affirmation by this forum for something that is on theoretically shaky ground.

– Michael Curtis
Mar 25 at 21:04





Ok, comments to the contrary. I guess I;m more concerned about the +19 votes and accepted answer. That's a pretty strong affirmation by this forum for something that is on theoretically shaky ground.

– Michael Curtis
Mar 25 at 21:04




1




1





now it's only +18

– Michael Curtis
Mar 25 at 21:04





now it's only +18

– Michael Curtis
Mar 25 at 21:04




1




1





THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN. WE MUST RESPECT THEIR VOTE. FAILING TO DO SO WOULD BE A BETRAYAL OF DEMOCRACY. (sorry if this humor doesn't work outside the UK ;). Anyway +1 from me :)

– topo morto
Mar 25 at 21:10





THE PEOPLE HAVE SPOKEN. WE MUST RESPECT THEIR VOTE. FAILING TO DO SO WOULD BE A BETRAYAL OF DEMOCRACY. (sorry if this humor doesn't work outside the UK ;). Anyway +1 from me :)

– topo morto
Mar 25 at 21:10




1




1





@ topo morto: When I met the first time SE 3 months ago and I told my friends about it they were just laughing and mentioning exactly this point :) but this site here is even better than “parentology”, “german language” and some others I have seen.

– Albrecht Hügli
Mar 25 at 23:07





@ topo morto: When I met the first time SE 3 months ago and I told my friends about it they were just laughing and mentioning exactly this point :) but this site here is even better than “parentology”, “german language” and some others I have seen.

– Albrecht Hügli
Mar 25 at 23:07










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes


















9















Can the harmonic series explain the origin of the major scale?




Emphatically yes, but that doesn't mean the major scale is literally contained in the harmonic series. We seem to be dealing basically with a black-and-white fallacy here: there aren't just two options “the entire major scale is contained in a single harmonic series” and “the major scale can't explain the major scale”. Rather, the scale is constructed from multiple building blocks that use the harmonic series.



As you said, the major triad is so well supported by the harmonic series that this can hardly be controversial. That's basically enough to explain the entire scale too if you just make use of the obvious candidates for a chord sequence: the chord gives the Ⅰ, ⅲ and Ⅴ scale degrees as 4:5:6 ratio, then the chord which has the original Ⅰ as its fifth is the subdominant, which adds the Ⅳ and ⅵ degrees, and finally the major chord on the degree gives you also the ⅱ and ⅶ.



The scale thus derived, using only the first five overtones in the harmonic series (plus extra octaves), is the Ptolemaic diatonic major scale. It could be argued that this is not the historically most relevant one, with the only 3-limit Pythagorean being an alternative. The fact that Pythagorean melody and Ptolemaic harmony can be pretty well approximated by a single tuning system – that's a meantone temperament, of which 12-edo is but one amongst many – is perhaps the centralmost feature of Western harmony.



Why use those particular three chords, , and to derive everything? Well, they are the obvious candidates insofar as you need to move the fundamental only by the simplest ratio – the 3:2 fifth. It is certainly possible to move around major chord by other steps, in particular by the mediant. That gives the ♭ or ♭ chords, which indeed are quite common in bluesy rock music and sound very tonal. Those songs sure enough tend to use not so much the full Ionian diatonic scale as the more flexible “blues scales” for their melodic content. It so happens that Common-practice music has not gone that road, which probably is mostly because those kinds of chord changes are much more natural for a parallel movement, sliding chords around the guitar neck style which CP so avoids. But I'd say that both approaches are clearly based on the harmonic series.



Similar story for




But the next strongest thing is a diminished triad




– kinda, however 7:6 is significantly narrower than a 6:5 minor third or even a 12-edo minor third. So it's no surprise if a diminished chord sounds dissonant although 5:6:7 are low integer ratios: because it would be way out of tune from that interpretation. A true 4:5:6:7 chord however sounds pretty amazing. Why does the seventh harmonic not feature in standard Western scales? Well, Western music has been to a huge degree shaped by the composers of the Baroque who loved symmetry and modulation. The playfield set up this way from only 5-limit primitives allowed for and enourmous richness that was carved out in the 18th and 19th centuries. Now, if you toss 7-limit intervals into that kind of music, everything would become a heck lot more complicated. 7- or even 11- and 13-limit intervals do feature in other musical traditions, but the Western composers just happen to take the more symmetrical road of 5-limit meantone music.



I do think extending Western counterpoint with 7- and 11 limit intervals is a great way in which music could evolve in the future. Just it's really quite difficult to keep the overview over the fine-grained scales and still keep it melodically graspable, about the only composer who has really been successful in that direction is Ben Johnston. Better computer frameworks, if not AI, might soon help as an assistant.






share|improve this answer

























  • I could not (and believe me, I tried to) have said this better myself. +1!

    – user45266
    Mar 26 at 4:24











  • What are "5-limit primitives?" I only know primitives from computer data types.

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 26 at 13:50


















7














There are several numerological methods to derive a major scale. Historically, several sets of six notes were used (called "hexachords") from which by various roundabout means, the various modes were derived. (Not every theorist used the same modes nor the same derivations.) The overtone series doesn't quite generate a nice scale (nor mode); neither do any others.



One method is to take combinations of overtones based on the first overtone (octave) and second (fifth). One gets "Pythagorean Tuning" using ratios containing only twos and threes. Tones an octave apart are considered "equivalent" for these constructions and the rations all become between 1.0 and 2.0. Thus the octave has a ratio of 2:1 (I prefer fractions 2/1) and the fifth (not called that yet) with a ration of 3/2. The inverse of the octave is 4/3 (the fourth). One can get twelve tones by noticing that 12 fifths is about the same as four octaves: (3/2)^12 (reduced) is 531441/252144 or 2.027.... which is close to an octave. Nothing ever comes out exact because no power of two is a power of three (except the 0th power which is 1). (Actually they are never too close except 8 and 9). One can take the twelve powers of 3/2 (0 through 11), reduce them to between 1 and 2, then sort. One gets an approximation to the 12-note chromatic scale. The first 7 powers are similar to the 7-notes of the major scale (or any of its modes).



One problem is that the "major third" (interval from C to E in modern terminology) has a ratio of 81/64 which is a bit out of tune (whatever that means) for lots of people. The next step is to expand the multipliers to using 2s, 3s, and 5s. This yield "just tuning" which sounds pretty good for a few chords. (Check in the Wiki: just tuning, temperament, Pythagorean tuning, mean-tone tuning, hexachord theory, etc. Iterate the bibliography operator.)



The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail. One must make some type of compromise; either some keys are not in tune or all keys are out of tune. But this is all a bit of a digression (people do get unreasonably passionate about tunings though).



The Greeks defined several tetrachords (four-note collections). Medieval theorists used various tetrachord combinations to derive scales. The Greeks used three descentind tetrachords (later theorists used ascending tetrachords). The "diatonic" tetrachord was (in modern notation) A-G-F-E (two tones and a semitone), the "chromatic" tetrachord A-Gb-F-E (a minor third and two semitones), and the "enharmonic" tetrachord A-Gbb-Fq-E (a major third and two quarter-tones). The major scale (or the Greek version) was made of two (descending again) tetrachords joined by a whole tone: E-D-C-B+A-G-F-E (the pattern of modern major and minor scales by permutation, and modes for that matter). That's how it was done harmonically. The Wiki on "tetrachords" gives a nice description.



My conclusion is that the major (and other) scales were not really derived from overtones. Overtones were later used to "explain" (actually, "almost explain") these scales.






share|improve this answer























  • If I follow your 2nd paragraph, harmonic 3, the P5 (strong is the series, important musically) is used in Pythagorean Tuning to get 12 chromatic tones (which contain a diatonic series too.) But that series doesn't match up with any part of the overtone series. This more or less restates my question. Or, by your final comment confirms my attitude on the subject... unless someone gives me a much more convincing argument.

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 25 at 20:58











  • “The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail.” Something like that is often said, but IMO pretty baseless. All it means is that finite note systems in JI can't allow infinite modulation – but that's hardly surprising, is it? Regardless, for any finite number of keys (possibly more than 12!), you can have a system that covers all of them in perfect JI. Whether that's practical is another question, but it's certainly not a fundamental mathematical dilemma.

    – leftaroundabout
    Mar 25 at 23:06







  • 2





    And actually -1, because a) there's clear historical evidence that the ancient Greeks did know about just intonation and the Western major scale was developed much later b) even if a scale wasn't knowingly designed around integer ratios – most of them match way to well too such ratios to put it off as mere coincidence. At least octaves and fifths really feature in so many cultures across the world, you can't seriously claim that the ratio-integerness isn't a real working principle here.

    – leftaroundabout
    Mar 25 at 23:15












  • A good explanation of why tuning can't accomodate both perfect fifths and octaves perfectly: youtu.be/8syA7S_5E3A?t=225

    – user45266
    Mar 26 at 4:21











Your Answer








StackExchange.ready(function()
var channelOptions =
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "240"
;
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function()
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled)
StackExchange.using("snippets", function()
createEditor();
);

else
createEditor();

);

function createEditor()
StackExchange.prepareEditor(
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader:
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
,
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
);



);













draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f81936%2fcan-the-harmonic-series-explain-the-origin-of-the-major-scale%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes








2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









9















Can the harmonic series explain the origin of the major scale?




Emphatically yes, but that doesn't mean the major scale is literally contained in the harmonic series. We seem to be dealing basically with a black-and-white fallacy here: there aren't just two options “the entire major scale is contained in a single harmonic series” and “the major scale can't explain the major scale”. Rather, the scale is constructed from multiple building blocks that use the harmonic series.



As you said, the major triad is so well supported by the harmonic series that this can hardly be controversial. That's basically enough to explain the entire scale too if you just make use of the obvious candidates for a chord sequence: the chord gives the Ⅰ, ⅲ and Ⅴ scale degrees as 4:5:6 ratio, then the chord which has the original Ⅰ as its fifth is the subdominant, which adds the Ⅳ and ⅵ degrees, and finally the major chord on the degree gives you also the ⅱ and ⅶ.



The scale thus derived, using only the first five overtones in the harmonic series (plus extra octaves), is the Ptolemaic diatonic major scale. It could be argued that this is not the historically most relevant one, with the only 3-limit Pythagorean being an alternative. The fact that Pythagorean melody and Ptolemaic harmony can be pretty well approximated by a single tuning system – that's a meantone temperament, of which 12-edo is but one amongst many – is perhaps the centralmost feature of Western harmony.



Why use those particular three chords, , and to derive everything? Well, they are the obvious candidates insofar as you need to move the fundamental only by the simplest ratio – the 3:2 fifth. It is certainly possible to move around major chord by other steps, in particular by the mediant. That gives the ♭ or ♭ chords, which indeed are quite common in bluesy rock music and sound very tonal. Those songs sure enough tend to use not so much the full Ionian diatonic scale as the more flexible “blues scales” for their melodic content. It so happens that Common-practice music has not gone that road, which probably is mostly because those kinds of chord changes are much more natural for a parallel movement, sliding chords around the guitar neck style which CP so avoids. But I'd say that both approaches are clearly based on the harmonic series.



Similar story for




But the next strongest thing is a diminished triad




– kinda, however 7:6 is significantly narrower than a 6:5 minor third or even a 12-edo minor third. So it's no surprise if a diminished chord sounds dissonant although 5:6:7 are low integer ratios: because it would be way out of tune from that interpretation. A true 4:5:6:7 chord however sounds pretty amazing. Why does the seventh harmonic not feature in standard Western scales? Well, Western music has been to a huge degree shaped by the composers of the Baroque who loved symmetry and modulation. The playfield set up this way from only 5-limit primitives allowed for and enourmous richness that was carved out in the 18th and 19th centuries. Now, if you toss 7-limit intervals into that kind of music, everything would become a heck lot more complicated. 7- or even 11- and 13-limit intervals do feature in other musical traditions, but the Western composers just happen to take the more symmetrical road of 5-limit meantone music.



I do think extending Western counterpoint with 7- and 11 limit intervals is a great way in which music could evolve in the future. Just it's really quite difficult to keep the overview over the fine-grained scales and still keep it melodically graspable, about the only composer who has really been successful in that direction is Ben Johnston. Better computer frameworks, if not AI, might soon help as an assistant.






share|improve this answer

























  • I could not (and believe me, I tried to) have said this better myself. +1!

    – user45266
    Mar 26 at 4:24











  • What are "5-limit primitives?" I only know primitives from computer data types.

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 26 at 13:50















9















Can the harmonic series explain the origin of the major scale?




Emphatically yes, but that doesn't mean the major scale is literally contained in the harmonic series. We seem to be dealing basically with a black-and-white fallacy here: there aren't just two options “the entire major scale is contained in a single harmonic series” and “the major scale can't explain the major scale”. Rather, the scale is constructed from multiple building blocks that use the harmonic series.



As you said, the major triad is so well supported by the harmonic series that this can hardly be controversial. That's basically enough to explain the entire scale too if you just make use of the obvious candidates for a chord sequence: the chord gives the Ⅰ, ⅲ and Ⅴ scale degrees as 4:5:6 ratio, then the chord which has the original Ⅰ as its fifth is the subdominant, which adds the Ⅳ and ⅵ degrees, and finally the major chord on the degree gives you also the ⅱ and ⅶ.



The scale thus derived, using only the first five overtones in the harmonic series (plus extra octaves), is the Ptolemaic diatonic major scale. It could be argued that this is not the historically most relevant one, with the only 3-limit Pythagorean being an alternative. The fact that Pythagorean melody and Ptolemaic harmony can be pretty well approximated by a single tuning system – that's a meantone temperament, of which 12-edo is but one amongst many – is perhaps the centralmost feature of Western harmony.



Why use those particular three chords, , and to derive everything? Well, they are the obvious candidates insofar as you need to move the fundamental only by the simplest ratio – the 3:2 fifth. It is certainly possible to move around major chord by other steps, in particular by the mediant. That gives the ♭ or ♭ chords, which indeed are quite common in bluesy rock music and sound very tonal. Those songs sure enough tend to use not so much the full Ionian diatonic scale as the more flexible “blues scales” for their melodic content. It so happens that Common-practice music has not gone that road, which probably is mostly because those kinds of chord changes are much more natural for a parallel movement, sliding chords around the guitar neck style which CP so avoids. But I'd say that both approaches are clearly based on the harmonic series.



Similar story for




But the next strongest thing is a diminished triad




– kinda, however 7:6 is significantly narrower than a 6:5 minor third or even a 12-edo minor third. So it's no surprise if a diminished chord sounds dissonant although 5:6:7 are low integer ratios: because it would be way out of tune from that interpretation. A true 4:5:6:7 chord however sounds pretty amazing. Why does the seventh harmonic not feature in standard Western scales? Well, Western music has been to a huge degree shaped by the composers of the Baroque who loved symmetry and modulation. The playfield set up this way from only 5-limit primitives allowed for and enourmous richness that was carved out in the 18th and 19th centuries. Now, if you toss 7-limit intervals into that kind of music, everything would become a heck lot more complicated. 7- or even 11- and 13-limit intervals do feature in other musical traditions, but the Western composers just happen to take the more symmetrical road of 5-limit meantone music.



I do think extending Western counterpoint with 7- and 11 limit intervals is a great way in which music could evolve in the future. Just it's really quite difficult to keep the overview over the fine-grained scales and still keep it melodically graspable, about the only composer who has really been successful in that direction is Ben Johnston. Better computer frameworks, if not AI, might soon help as an assistant.






share|improve this answer

























  • I could not (and believe me, I tried to) have said this better myself. +1!

    – user45266
    Mar 26 at 4:24











  • What are "5-limit primitives?" I only know primitives from computer data types.

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 26 at 13:50













9












9








9








Can the harmonic series explain the origin of the major scale?




Emphatically yes, but that doesn't mean the major scale is literally contained in the harmonic series. We seem to be dealing basically with a black-and-white fallacy here: there aren't just two options “the entire major scale is contained in a single harmonic series” and “the major scale can't explain the major scale”. Rather, the scale is constructed from multiple building blocks that use the harmonic series.



As you said, the major triad is so well supported by the harmonic series that this can hardly be controversial. That's basically enough to explain the entire scale too if you just make use of the obvious candidates for a chord sequence: the chord gives the Ⅰ, ⅲ and Ⅴ scale degrees as 4:5:6 ratio, then the chord which has the original Ⅰ as its fifth is the subdominant, which adds the Ⅳ and ⅵ degrees, and finally the major chord on the degree gives you also the ⅱ and ⅶ.



The scale thus derived, using only the first five overtones in the harmonic series (plus extra octaves), is the Ptolemaic diatonic major scale. It could be argued that this is not the historically most relevant one, with the only 3-limit Pythagorean being an alternative. The fact that Pythagorean melody and Ptolemaic harmony can be pretty well approximated by a single tuning system – that's a meantone temperament, of which 12-edo is but one amongst many – is perhaps the centralmost feature of Western harmony.



Why use those particular three chords, , and to derive everything? Well, they are the obvious candidates insofar as you need to move the fundamental only by the simplest ratio – the 3:2 fifth. It is certainly possible to move around major chord by other steps, in particular by the mediant. That gives the ♭ or ♭ chords, which indeed are quite common in bluesy rock music and sound very tonal. Those songs sure enough tend to use not so much the full Ionian diatonic scale as the more flexible “blues scales” for their melodic content. It so happens that Common-practice music has not gone that road, which probably is mostly because those kinds of chord changes are much more natural for a parallel movement, sliding chords around the guitar neck style which CP so avoids. But I'd say that both approaches are clearly based on the harmonic series.



Similar story for




But the next strongest thing is a diminished triad




– kinda, however 7:6 is significantly narrower than a 6:5 minor third or even a 12-edo minor third. So it's no surprise if a diminished chord sounds dissonant although 5:6:7 are low integer ratios: because it would be way out of tune from that interpretation. A true 4:5:6:7 chord however sounds pretty amazing. Why does the seventh harmonic not feature in standard Western scales? Well, Western music has been to a huge degree shaped by the composers of the Baroque who loved symmetry and modulation. The playfield set up this way from only 5-limit primitives allowed for and enourmous richness that was carved out in the 18th and 19th centuries. Now, if you toss 7-limit intervals into that kind of music, everything would become a heck lot more complicated. 7- or even 11- and 13-limit intervals do feature in other musical traditions, but the Western composers just happen to take the more symmetrical road of 5-limit meantone music.



I do think extending Western counterpoint with 7- and 11 limit intervals is a great way in which music could evolve in the future. Just it's really quite difficult to keep the overview over the fine-grained scales and still keep it melodically graspable, about the only composer who has really been successful in that direction is Ben Johnston. Better computer frameworks, if not AI, might soon help as an assistant.






share|improve this answer
















Can the harmonic series explain the origin of the major scale?




Emphatically yes, but that doesn't mean the major scale is literally contained in the harmonic series. We seem to be dealing basically with a black-and-white fallacy here: there aren't just two options “the entire major scale is contained in a single harmonic series” and “the major scale can't explain the major scale”. Rather, the scale is constructed from multiple building blocks that use the harmonic series.



As you said, the major triad is so well supported by the harmonic series that this can hardly be controversial. That's basically enough to explain the entire scale too if you just make use of the obvious candidates for a chord sequence: the chord gives the Ⅰ, ⅲ and Ⅴ scale degrees as 4:5:6 ratio, then the chord which has the original Ⅰ as its fifth is the subdominant, which adds the Ⅳ and ⅵ degrees, and finally the major chord on the degree gives you also the ⅱ and ⅶ.



The scale thus derived, using only the first five overtones in the harmonic series (plus extra octaves), is the Ptolemaic diatonic major scale. It could be argued that this is not the historically most relevant one, with the only 3-limit Pythagorean being an alternative. The fact that Pythagorean melody and Ptolemaic harmony can be pretty well approximated by a single tuning system – that's a meantone temperament, of which 12-edo is but one amongst many – is perhaps the centralmost feature of Western harmony.



Why use those particular three chords, , and to derive everything? Well, they are the obvious candidates insofar as you need to move the fundamental only by the simplest ratio – the 3:2 fifth. It is certainly possible to move around major chord by other steps, in particular by the mediant. That gives the ♭ or ♭ chords, which indeed are quite common in bluesy rock music and sound very tonal. Those songs sure enough tend to use not so much the full Ionian diatonic scale as the more flexible “blues scales” for their melodic content. It so happens that Common-practice music has not gone that road, which probably is mostly because those kinds of chord changes are much more natural for a parallel movement, sliding chords around the guitar neck style which CP so avoids. But I'd say that both approaches are clearly based on the harmonic series.



Similar story for




But the next strongest thing is a diminished triad




– kinda, however 7:6 is significantly narrower than a 6:5 minor third or even a 12-edo minor third. So it's no surprise if a diminished chord sounds dissonant although 5:6:7 are low integer ratios: because it would be way out of tune from that interpretation. A true 4:5:6:7 chord however sounds pretty amazing. Why does the seventh harmonic not feature in standard Western scales? Well, Western music has been to a huge degree shaped by the composers of the Baroque who loved symmetry and modulation. The playfield set up this way from only 5-limit primitives allowed for and enourmous richness that was carved out in the 18th and 19th centuries. Now, if you toss 7-limit intervals into that kind of music, everything would become a heck lot more complicated. 7- or even 11- and 13-limit intervals do feature in other musical traditions, but the Western composers just happen to take the more symmetrical road of 5-limit meantone music.



I do think extending Western counterpoint with 7- and 11 limit intervals is a great way in which music could evolve in the future. Just it's really quite difficult to keep the overview over the fine-grained scales and still keep it melodically graspable, about the only composer who has really been successful in that direction is Ben Johnston. Better computer frameworks, if not AI, might soon help as an assistant.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited Mar 26 at 0:31

























answered Mar 26 at 0:17









leftaroundaboutleftaroundabout

20.8k3790




20.8k3790












  • I could not (and believe me, I tried to) have said this better myself. +1!

    – user45266
    Mar 26 at 4:24











  • What are "5-limit primitives?" I only know primitives from computer data types.

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 26 at 13:50

















  • I could not (and believe me, I tried to) have said this better myself. +1!

    – user45266
    Mar 26 at 4:24











  • What are "5-limit primitives?" I only know primitives from computer data types.

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 26 at 13:50
















I could not (and believe me, I tried to) have said this better myself. +1!

– user45266
Mar 26 at 4:24





I could not (and believe me, I tried to) have said this better myself. +1!

– user45266
Mar 26 at 4:24













What are "5-limit primitives?" I only know primitives from computer data types.

– Michael Curtis
Mar 26 at 13:50





What are "5-limit primitives?" I only know primitives from computer data types.

– Michael Curtis
Mar 26 at 13:50











7














There are several numerological methods to derive a major scale. Historically, several sets of six notes were used (called "hexachords") from which by various roundabout means, the various modes were derived. (Not every theorist used the same modes nor the same derivations.) The overtone series doesn't quite generate a nice scale (nor mode); neither do any others.



One method is to take combinations of overtones based on the first overtone (octave) and second (fifth). One gets "Pythagorean Tuning" using ratios containing only twos and threes. Tones an octave apart are considered "equivalent" for these constructions and the rations all become between 1.0 and 2.0. Thus the octave has a ratio of 2:1 (I prefer fractions 2/1) and the fifth (not called that yet) with a ration of 3/2. The inverse of the octave is 4/3 (the fourth). One can get twelve tones by noticing that 12 fifths is about the same as four octaves: (3/2)^12 (reduced) is 531441/252144 or 2.027.... which is close to an octave. Nothing ever comes out exact because no power of two is a power of three (except the 0th power which is 1). (Actually they are never too close except 8 and 9). One can take the twelve powers of 3/2 (0 through 11), reduce them to between 1 and 2, then sort. One gets an approximation to the 12-note chromatic scale. The first 7 powers are similar to the 7-notes of the major scale (or any of its modes).



One problem is that the "major third" (interval from C to E in modern terminology) has a ratio of 81/64 which is a bit out of tune (whatever that means) for lots of people. The next step is to expand the multipliers to using 2s, 3s, and 5s. This yield "just tuning" which sounds pretty good for a few chords. (Check in the Wiki: just tuning, temperament, Pythagorean tuning, mean-tone tuning, hexachord theory, etc. Iterate the bibliography operator.)



The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail. One must make some type of compromise; either some keys are not in tune or all keys are out of tune. But this is all a bit of a digression (people do get unreasonably passionate about tunings though).



The Greeks defined several tetrachords (four-note collections). Medieval theorists used various tetrachord combinations to derive scales. The Greeks used three descentind tetrachords (later theorists used ascending tetrachords). The "diatonic" tetrachord was (in modern notation) A-G-F-E (two tones and a semitone), the "chromatic" tetrachord A-Gb-F-E (a minor third and two semitones), and the "enharmonic" tetrachord A-Gbb-Fq-E (a major third and two quarter-tones). The major scale (or the Greek version) was made of two (descending again) tetrachords joined by a whole tone: E-D-C-B+A-G-F-E (the pattern of modern major and minor scales by permutation, and modes for that matter). That's how it was done harmonically. The Wiki on "tetrachords" gives a nice description.



My conclusion is that the major (and other) scales were not really derived from overtones. Overtones were later used to "explain" (actually, "almost explain") these scales.






share|improve this answer























  • If I follow your 2nd paragraph, harmonic 3, the P5 (strong is the series, important musically) is used in Pythagorean Tuning to get 12 chromatic tones (which contain a diatonic series too.) But that series doesn't match up with any part of the overtone series. This more or less restates my question. Or, by your final comment confirms my attitude on the subject... unless someone gives me a much more convincing argument.

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 25 at 20:58











  • “The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail.” Something like that is often said, but IMO pretty baseless. All it means is that finite note systems in JI can't allow infinite modulation – but that's hardly surprising, is it? Regardless, for any finite number of keys (possibly more than 12!), you can have a system that covers all of them in perfect JI. Whether that's practical is another question, but it's certainly not a fundamental mathematical dilemma.

    – leftaroundabout
    Mar 25 at 23:06







  • 2





    And actually -1, because a) there's clear historical evidence that the ancient Greeks did know about just intonation and the Western major scale was developed much later b) even if a scale wasn't knowingly designed around integer ratios – most of them match way to well too such ratios to put it off as mere coincidence. At least octaves and fifths really feature in so many cultures across the world, you can't seriously claim that the ratio-integerness isn't a real working principle here.

    – leftaroundabout
    Mar 25 at 23:15












  • A good explanation of why tuning can't accomodate both perfect fifths and octaves perfectly: youtu.be/8syA7S_5E3A?t=225

    – user45266
    Mar 26 at 4:21















7














There are several numerological methods to derive a major scale. Historically, several sets of six notes were used (called "hexachords") from which by various roundabout means, the various modes were derived. (Not every theorist used the same modes nor the same derivations.) The overtone series doesn't quite generate a nice scale (nor mode); neither do any others.



One method is to take combinations of overtones based on the first overtone (octave) and second (fifth). One gets "Pythagorean Tuning" using ratios containing only twos and threes. Tones an octave apart are considered "equivalent" for these constructions and the rations all become between 1.0 and 2.0. Thus the octave has a ratio of 2:1 (I prefer fractions 2/1) and the fifth (not called that yet) with a ration of 3/2. The inverse of the octave is 4/3 (the fourth). One can get twelve tones by noticing that 12 fifths is about the same as four octaves: (3/2)^12 (reduced) is 531441/252144 or 2.027.... which is close to an octave. Nothing ever comes out exact because no power of two is a power of three (except the 0th power which is 1). (Actually they are never too close except 8 and 9). One can take the twelve powers of 3/2 (0 through 11), reduce them to between 1 and 2, then sort. One gets an approximation to the 12-note chromatic scale. The first 7 powers are similar to the 7-notes of the major scale (or any of its modes).



One problem is that the "major third" (interval from C to E in modern terminology) has a ratio of 81/64 which is a bit out of tune (whatever that means) for lots of people. The next step is to expand the multipliers to using 2s, 3s, and 5s. This yield "just tuning" which sounds pretty good for a few chords. (Check in the Wiki: just tuning, temperament, Pythagorean tuning, mean-tone tuning, hexachord theory, etc. Iterate the bibliography operator.)



The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail. One must make some type of compromise; either some keys are not in tune or all keys are out of tune. But this is all a bit of a digression (people do get unreasonably passionate about tunings though).



The Greeks defined several tetrachords (four-note collections). Medieval theorists used various tetrachord combinations to derive scales. The Greeks used three descentind tetrachords (later theorists used ascending tetrachords). The "diatonic" tetrachord was (in modern notation) A-G-F-E (two tones and a semitone), the "chromatic" tetrachord A-Gb-F-E (a minor third and two semitones), and the "enharmonic" tetrachord A-Gbb-Fq-E (a major third and two quarter-tones). The major scale (or the Greek version) was made of two (descending again) tetrachords joined by a whole tone: E-D-C-B+A-G-F-E (the pattern of modern major and minor scales by permutation, and modes for that matter). That's how it was done harmonically. The Wiki on "tetrachords" gives a nice description.



My conclusion is that the major (and other) scales were not really derived from overtones. Overtones were later used to "explain" (actually, "almost explain") these scales.






share|improve this answer























  • If I follow your 2nd paragraph, harmonic 3, the P5 (strong is the series, important musically) is used in Pythagorean Tuning to get 12 chromatic tones (which contain a diatonic series too.) But that series doesn't match up with any part of the overtone series. This more or less restates my question. Or, by your final comment confirms my attitude on the subject... unless someone gives me a much more convincing argument.

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 25 at 20:58











  • “The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail.” Something like that is often said, but IMO pretty baseless. All it means is that finite note systems in JI can't allow infinite modulation – but that's hardly surprising, is it? Regardless, for any finite number of keys (possibly more than 12!), you can have a system that covers all of them in perfect JI. Whether that's practical is another question, but it's certainly not a fundamental mathematical dilemma.

    – leftaroundabout
    Mar 25 at 23:06







  • 2





    And actually -1, because a) there's clear historical evidence that the ancient Greeks did know about just intonation and the Western major scale was developed much later b) even if a scale wasn't knowingly designed around integer ratios – most of them match way to well too such ratios to put it off as mere coincidence. At least octaves and fifths really feature in so many cultures across the world, you can't seriously claim that the ratio-integerness isn't a real working principle here.

    – leftaroundabout
    Mar 25 at 23:15












  • A good explanation of why tuning can't accomodate both perfect fifths and octaves perfectly: youtu.be/8syA7S_5E3A?t=225

    – user45266
    Mar 26 at 4:21













7












7








7







There are several numerological methods to derive a major scale. Historically, several sets of six notes were used (called "hexachords") from which by various roundabout means, the various modes were derived. (Not every theorist used the same modes nor the same derivations.) The overtone series doesn't quite generate a nice scale (nor mode); neither do any others.



One method is to take combinations of overtones based on the first overtone (octave) and second (fifth). One gets "Pythagorean Tuning" using ratios containing only twos and threes. Tones an octave apart are considered "equivalent" for these constructions and the rations all become between 1.0 and 2.0. Thus the octave has a ratio of 2:1 (I prefer fractions 2/1) and the fifth (not called that yet) with a ration of 3/2. The inverse of the octave is 4/3 (the fourth). One can get twelve tones by noticing that 12 fifths is about the same as four octaves: (3/2)^12 (reduced) is 531441/252144 or 2.027.... which is close to an octave. Nothing ever comes out exact because no power of two is a power of three (except the 0th power which is 1). (Actually they are never too close except 8 and 9). One can take the twelve powers of 3/2 (0 through 11), reduce them to between 1 and 2, then sort. One gets an approximation to the 12-note chromatic scale. The first 7 powers are similar to the 7-notes of the major scale (or any of its modes).



One problem is that the "major third" (interval from C to E in modern terminology) has a ratio of 81/64 which is a bit out of tune (whatever that means) for lots of people. The next step is to expand the multipliers to using 2s, 3s, and 5s. This yield "just tuning" which sounds pretty good for a few chords. (Check in the Wiki: just tuning, temperament, Pythagorean tuning, mean-tone tuning, hexachord theory, etc. Iterate the bibliography operator.)



The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail. One must make some type of compromise; either some keys are not in tune or all keys are out of tune. But this is all a bit of a digression (people do get unreasonably passionate about tunings though).



The Greeks defined several tetrachords (four-note collections). Medieval theorists used various tetrachord combinations to derive scales. The Greeks used three descentind tetrachords (later theorists used ascending tetrachords). The "diatonic" tetrachord was (in modern notation) A-G-F-E (two tones and a semitone), the "chromatic" tetrachord A-Gb-F-E (a minor third and two semitones), and the "enharmonic" tetrachord A-Gbb-Fq-E (a major third and two quarter-tones). The major scale (or the Greek version) was made of two (descending again) tetrachords joined by a whole tone: E-D-C-B+A-G-F-E (the pattern of modern major and minor scales by permutation, and modes for that matter). That's how it was done harmonically. The Wiki on "tetrachords" gives a nice description.



My conclusion is that the major (and other) scales were not really derived from overtones. Overtones were later used to "explain" (actually, "almost explain") these scales.






share|improve this answer













There are several numerological methods to derive a major scale. Historically, several sets of six notes were used (called "hexachords") from which by various roundabout means, the various modes were derived. (Not every theorist used the same modes nor the same derivations.) The overtone series doesn't quite generate a nice scale (nor mode); neither do any others.



One method is to take combinations of overtones based on the first overtone (octave) and second (fifth). One gets "Pythagorean Tuning" using ratios containing only twos and threes. Tones an octave apart are considered "equivalent" for these constructions and the rations all become between 1.0 and 2.0. Thus the octave has a ratio of 2:1 (I prefer fractions 2/1) and the fifth (not called that yet) with a ration of 3/2. The inverse of the octave is 4/3 (the fourth). One can get twelve tones by noticing that 12 fifths is about the same as four octaves: (3/2)^12 (reduced) is 531441/252144 or 2.027.... which is close to an octave. Nothing ever comes out exact because no power of two is a power of three (except the 0th power which is 1). (Actually they are never too close except 8 and 9). One can take the twelve powers of 3/2 (0 through 11), reduce them to between 1 and 2, then sort. One gets an approximation to the 12-note chromatic scale. The first 7 powers are similar to the 7-notes of the major scale (or any of its modes).



One problem is that the "major third" (interval from C to E in modern terminology) has a ratio of 81/64 which is a bit out of tune (whatever that means) for lots of people. The next step is to expand the multipliers to using 2s, 3s, and 5s. This yield "just tuning" which sounds pretty good for a few chords. (Check in the Wiki: just tuning, temperament, Pythagorean tuning, mean-tone tuning, hexachord theory, etc. Iterate the bibliography operator.)



The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail. One must make some type of compromise; either some keys are not in tune or all keys are out of tune. But this is all a bit of a digression (people do get unreasonably passionate about tunings though).



The Greeks defined several tetrachords (four-note collections). Medieval theorists used various tetrachord combinations to derive scales. The Greeks used three descentind tetrachords (later theorists used ascending tetrachords). The "diatonic" tetrachord was (in modern notation) A-G-F-E (two tones and a semitone), the "chromatic" tetrachord A-Gb-F-E (a minor third and two semitones), and the "enharmonic" tetrachord A-Gbb-Fq-E (a major third and two quarter-tones). The major scale (or the Greek version) was made of two (descending again) tetrachords joined by a whole tone: E-D-C-B+A-G-F-E (the pattern of modern major and minor scales by permutation, and modes for that matter). That's how it was done harmonically. The Wiki on "tetrachords" gives a nice description.



My conclusion is that the major (and other) scales were not really derived from overtones. Overtones were later used to "explain" (actually, "almost explain") these scales.







share|improve this answer












share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer










answered Mar 25 at 20:48









ttwttw

9,4321033




9,4321033












  • If I follow your 2nd paragraph, harmonic 3, the P5 (strong is the series, important musically) is used in Pythagorean Tuning to get 12 chromatic tones (which contain a diatonic series too.) But that series doesn't match up with any part of the overtone series. This more or less restates my question. Or, by your final comment confirms my attitude on the subject... unless someone gives me a much more convincing argument.

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 25 at 20:58











  • “The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail.” Something like that is often said, but IMO pretty baseless. All it means is that finite note systems in JI can't allow infinite modulation – but that's hardly surprising, is it? Regardless, for any finite number of keys (possibly more than 12!), you can have a system that covers all of them in perfect JI. Whether that's practical is another question, but it's certainly not a fundamental mathematical dilemma.

    – leftaroundabout
    Mar 25 at 23:06







  • 2





    And actually -1, because a) there's clear historical evidence that the ancient Greeks did know about just intonation and the Western major scale was developed much later b) even if a scale wasn't knowingly designed around integer ratios – most of them match way to well too such ratios to put it off as mere coincidence. At least octaves and fifths really feature in so many cultures across the world, you can't seriously claim that the ratio-integerness isn't a real working principle here.

    – leftaroundabout
    Mar 25 at 23:15












  • A good explanation of why tuning can't accomodate both perfect fifths and octaves perfectly: youtu.be/8syA7S_5E3A?t=225

    – user45266
    Mar 26 at 4:21

















  • If I follow your 2nd paragraph, harmonic 3, the P5 (strong is the series, important musically) is used in Pythagorean Tuning to get 12 chromatic tones (which contain a diatonic series too.) But that series doesn't match up with any part of the overtone series. This more or less restates my question. Or, by your final comment confirms my attitude on the subject... unless someone gives me a much more convincing argument.

    – Michael Curtis
    Mar 25 at 20:58











  • “The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail.” Something like that is often said, but IMO pretty baseless. All it means is that finite note systems in JI can't allow infinite modulation – but that's hardly surprising, is it? Regardless, for any finite number of keys (possibly more than 12!), you can have a system that covers all of them in perfect JI. Whether that's practical is another question, but it's certainly not a fundamental mathematical dilemma.

    – leftaroundabout
    Mar 25 at 23:06







  • 2





    And actually -1, because a) there's clear historical evidence that the ancient Greeks did know about just intonation and the Western major scale was developed much later b) even if a scale wasn't knowingly designed around integer ratios – most of them match way to well too such ratios to put it off as mere coincidence. At least octaves and fifths really feature in so many cultures across the world, you can't seriously claim that the ratio-integerness isn't a real working principle here.

    – leftaroundabout
    Mar 25 at 23:15












  • A good explanation of why tuning can't accomodate both perfect fifths and octaves perfectly: youtu.be/8syA7S_5E3A?t=225

    – user45266
    Mar 26 at 4:21
















If I follow your 2nd paragraph, harmonic 3, the P5 (strong is the series, important musically) is used in Pythagorean Tuning to get 12 chromatic tones (which contain a diatonic series too.) But that series doesn't match up with any part of the overtone series. This more or less restates my question. Or, by your final comment confirms my attitude on the subject... unless someone gives me a much more convincing argument.

– Michael Curtis
Mar 25 at 20:58





If I follow your 2nd paragraph, harmonic 3, the P5 (strong is the series, important musically) is used in Pythagorean Tuning to get 12 chromatic tones (which contain a diatonic series too.) But that series doesn't match up with any part of the overtone series. This more or less restates my question. Or, by your final comment confirms my attitude on the subject... unless someone gives me a much more convincing argument.

– Michael Curtis
Mar 25 at 20:58













“The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail.” Something like that is often said, but IMO pretty baseless. All it means is that finite note systems in JI can't allow infinite modulation – but that's hardly surprising, is it? Regardless, for any finite number of keys (possibly more than 12!), you can have a system that covers all of them in perfect JI. Whether that's practical is another question, but it's certainly not a fundamental mathematical dilemma.

– leftaroundabout
Mar 25 at 23:06






“The fact that (except for the zeroth power) no prime powers are equal means that all system fail.” Something like that is often said, but IMO pretty baseless. All it means is that finite note systems in JI can't allow infinite modulation – but that's hardly surprising, is it? Regardless, for any finite number of keys (possibly more than 12!), you can have a system that covers all of them in perfect JI. Whether that's practical is another question, but it's certainly not a fundamental mathematical dilemma.

– leftaroundabout
Mar 25 at 23:06





2




2





And actually -1, because a) there's clear historical evidence that the ancient Greeks did know about just intonation and the Western major scale was developed much later b) even if a scale wasn't knowingly designed around integer ratios – most of them match way to well too such ratios to put it off as mere coincidence. At least octaves and fifths really feature in so many cultures across the world, you can't seriously claim that the ratio-integerness isn't a real working principle here.

– leftaroundabout
Mar 25 at 23:15






And actually -1, because a) there's clear historical evidence that the ancient Greeks did know about just intonation and the Western major scale was developed much later b) even if a scale wasn't knowingly designed around integer ratios – most of them match way to well too such ratios to put it off as mere coincidence. At least octaves and fifths really feature in so many cultures across the world, you can't seriously claim that the ratio-integerness isn't a real working principle here.

– leftaroundabout
Mar 25 at 23:15














A good explanation of why tuning can't accomodate both perfect fifths and octaves perfectly: youtu.be/8syA7S_5E3A?t=225

– user45266
Mar 26 at 4:21





A good explanation of why tuning can't accomodate both perfect fifths and octaves perfectly: youtu.be/8syA7S_5E3A?t=225

– user45266
Mar 26 at 4:21

















draft saved

draft discarded
















































Thanks for contributing an answer to Music: Practice & Theory Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid


  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.

To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function ()
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmusic.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f81936%2fcan-the-harmonic-series-explain-the-origin-of-the-major-scale%23new-answer', 'question_page');

);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

How should I support this large drywall patch? Planned maintenance scheduled April 23, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern) Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Unicorn Meta Zoo #1: Why another podcast?How do I cover large gaps in drywall?How do I keep drywall around a patch from crumbling?Can I glue a second layer of drywall?How to patch long strip on drywall?Large drywall patch: how to avoid bulging seams?Drywall Mesh Patch vs. Bulge? To remove or not to remove?How to fix this drywall job?Prep drywall before backsplashWhat's the best way to fix this horrible drywall patch job?Drywall patching using 3M Patch Plus Primer

Lowndes Grove History Architecture References Navigation menu32°48′6″N 79°57′58″W / 32.80167°N 79.96611°W / 32.80167; -79.9661132°48′6″N 79°57′58″W / 32.80167°N 79.96611°W / 32.80167; -79.9661178002500"National Register Information System"Historic houses of South Carolina"Lowndes Grove""+32° 48' 6.00", −79° 57' 58.00""Lowndes Grove, Charleston County (260 St. Margaret St., Charleston)""Lowndes Grove"The Charleston ExpositionIt Happened in South Carolina"Lowndes Grove (House), Saint Margaret Street & Sixth Avenue, Charleston, Charleston County, SC(Photographs)"Plantations of the Carolina Low Countrye

Kathakali Contents Etymology and nomenclature History Repertoire Songs and musical instruments Traditional plays Styles: Sampradayam Training centers and awards Relationship to other dance forms See also Notes References External links Navigation menueThe Illustrated Encyclopedia of Hinduism: A-MSouth Asian Folklore: An EncyclopediaRoutledge International Encyclopedia of Women: Global Women's Issues and KnowledgeKathakali Dance-drama: Where Gods and Demons Come to PlayKathakali Dance-drama: Where Gods and Demons Come to PlayKathakali Dance-drama: Where Gods and Demons Come to Play10.1353/atj.2005.0004The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Hinduism: A-MEncyclopedia of HinduismKathakali Dance-drama: Where Gods and Demons Come to PlaySonic Liturgy: Ritual and Music in Hindu Tradition"The Mirror of Gesture"Kathakali Dance-drama: Where Gods and Demons Come to Play"Kathakali"Indian Theatre: Traditions of PerformanceIndian Theatre: Traditions of PerformanceIndian Theatre: Traditions of PerformanceIndian Theatre: Traditions of PerformanceMedieval Indian Literature: An AnthologyThe Oxford Companion to Indian TheatreSouth Asian Folklore: An Encyclopedia : Afghanistan, Bangladesh, India, Nepal, Pakistan, Sri LankaThe Rise of Performance Studies: Rethinking Richard Schechner's Broad SpectrumIndian Theatre: Traditions of PerformanceModern Asian Theatre and Performance 1900-2000Critical Theory and PerformanceBetween Theater and AnthropologyKathakali603847011Indian Theatre: Traditions of PerformanceIndian Theatre: Traditions of PerformanceIndian Theatre: Traditions of PerformanceBetween Theater and AnthropologyBetween Theater and AnthropologyNambeesan Smaraka AwardsArchivedThe Cambridge Guide to TheatreRoutledge International Encyclopedia of Women: Global Women's Issues and KnowledgeThe Garland Encyclopedia of World Music: South Asia : the Indian subcontinentThe Ethos of Noh: Actors and Their Art10.2307/1145740By Means of Performance: Intercultural Studies of Theatre and Ritual10.1017/s204912550000100xReconceiving the Renaissance: A Critical ReaderPerformance TheoryListening to Theatre: The Aural Dimension of Beijing Opera10.2307/1146013Kathakali: The Art of the Non-WorldlyOn KathakaliKathakali, the dance theatreThe Kathakali Complex: Performance & StructureKathakali Dance-Drama: Where Gods and Demons Come to Play10.1093/obo/9780195399318-0071Drama and Ritual of Early Hinduism"In the Shadow of Hollywood Orientalism: Authentic East Indian Dancing"10.1080/08949460490274013Sanskrit Play Production in Ancient IndiaIndian Music: History and StructureBharata, the Nāṭyaśāstra233639306Table of Contents2238067286469807Dance In Indian Painting10.2307/32047833204783Kathakali Dance-Theatre: A Visual Narrative of Sacred Indian MimeIndian Classical Dance: The Renaissance and BeyondKathakali: an indigenous art-form of Keralaeee