Can two equations when multiplied sometimes not give graph of both the equations? Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Is this Batman equation for real?Power functions and parabola issueAn equation with graph as a line *segment*: $ sqrt x^2 + (y+12)^2 = 13 - sqrt(x-5)^2 + y^2 $Obtaining constant using the straight line gradient of two equationsTriple Simultaneous Equations not resolving the Equation for a Quadratic FunctionWhy graph of $sin(x+45^circ$) shifts to left instead of rightCan the graph of $tan^-1left(fracsin xxright)$ be expressed as $Ce^-kxcos(omega x + phi)$?How to transform a rational function into a straight line (or viceversa)When can we apply matrix operations to both sides of the equation to solve linear systems?The graph of $sqrt(x+2)^2+y^2 + sqrtx^2 + (y-2)^2 = 6$ is a(n)…Finding the intersection of two 2d vector equations
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Can two equations when multiplied sometimes not give graph of both the equations?
Announcing the arrival of Valued Associate #679: Cesar Manara
Planned maintenance scheduled April 17/18, 2019 at 00:00UTC (8:00pm US/Eastern)Is this Batman equation for real?Power functions and parabola issueAn equation with graph as a line *segment*: $ sqrt x^2 + (y+12)^2 = 13 - sqrt(x-5)^2 + y^2 $Obtaining constant using the straight line gradient of two equationsTriple Simultaneous Equations not resolving the Equation for a Quadratic FunctionWhy graph of $sin(x+45^circ$) shifts to left instead of rightCan the graph of $tan^-1left(fracsin xxright)$ be expressed as $Ce^-kxcos(omega x + phi)$?How to transform a rational function into a straight line (or viceversa)When can we apply matrix operations to both sides of the equation to solve linear systems?The graph of $sqrt(x+2)^2+y^2 + sqrtx^2 + (y-2)^2 = 6$ is a(n)…Finding the intersection of two 2d vector equations
$begingroup$
I wanted graph of this equation:
$$left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)5right)^2+left(fracy4right)^2-1right)left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)3.4right)^2+left(fracy2.72right)^2-1right) left(x-yright)=0$$
I want a x=y line as well. So I kept (x-y) on the function side since (x-y)=0 should ultimately give x=y as graph along with graph of other functions. But I don't get the x=y line as a whole. It's not complete and I don't understand why.
I think there's something to do with which other equations I have used. But that doesn't seem to click. Isn't it mathematically correct to multiply two equations with 0 on right sides and get both equations' graph?
linear-algebra functions graphing-functions
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I wanted graph of this equation:
$$left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)5right)^2+left(fracy4right)^2-1right)left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)3.4right)^2+left(fracy2.72right)^2-1right) left(x-yright)=0$$
I want a x=y line as well. So I kept (x-y) on the function side since (x-y)=0 should ultimately give x=y as graph along with graph of other functions. But I don't get the x=y line as a whole. It's not complete and I don't understand why.
I think there's something to do with which other equations I have used. But that doesn't seem to click. Isn't it mathematically correct to multiply two equations with 0 on right sides and get both equations' graph?
linear-algebra functions graphing-functions
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I wanted graph of this equation:
$$left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)5right)^2+left(fracy4right)^2-1right)left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)3.4right)^2+left(fracy2.72right)^2-1right) left(x-yright)=0$$
I want a x=y line as well. So I kept (x-y) on the function side since (x-y)=0 should ultimately give x=y as graph along with graph of other functions. But I don't get the x=y line as a whole. It's not complete and I don't understand why.
I think there's something to do with which other equations I have used. But that doesn't seem to click. Isn't it mathematically correct to multiply two equations with 0 on right sides and get both equations' graph?
linear-algebra functions graphing-functions
$endgroup$
I wanted graph of this equation:
$$left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)5right)^2+left(fracy4right)^2-1right)left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)3.4right)^2+left(fracy2.72right)^2-1right) left(x-yright)=0$$
I want a x=y line as well. So I kept (x-y) on the function side since (x-y)=0 should ultimately give x=y as graph along with graph of other functions. But I don't get the x=y line as a whole. It's not complete and I don't understand why.
I think there's something to do with which other equations I have used. But that doesn't seem to click. Isn't it mathematically correct to multiply two equations with 0 on right sides and get both equations' graph?
linear-algebra functions graphing-functions
linear-algebra functions graphing-functions
edited Mar 26 at 10:30
David Mitra
63.8k6102165
63.8k6102165
asked Mar 26 at 10:30
user68153user68153
113
113
add a comment |
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
You're completely right about "the other equations" being the source of the problem.
Let me start with something simple. What is the value of
$$
x cdot 0 ?
$$
It's very tempting to say, "It's $0$, of course, because anything times zero is zero!" But what if $x$ is, for instance, a cheese omelet? Then...well...then multiplication by zero isn't even defined, and you'd have to say "$x cdot 0$ is undefined" rather than "it's zero." You might say that "cheese omelet" isn't really math, but what if we replace $x$ like this:
$$
(1/0) cdot 0
$$
Then our first factor is undefined, and multiplication by undefined things is undefined, so once again the product is "undefined" rather than zero.
Now let's look at a more complicated example. I'm going to stick with the real numbers -- no complex numbers allowed! -- and I want to look at
$$
sqrtx cdot 0
$$
You might say "Well, that's definitely zero!", but what if $x = -3$? Then the square root is undefined, and so the product is undefined as well.
Here's a theorem that your question hints at:
Theorem: Suppose $f, g : Bbb R^2 to Bbb R$, and $G$ is the solution set of the equation $g(x, y) = 0$, and $F$ is the solution
set of the equation $f(x, y) = 0$. Then the solution set of the
equation $$ f(x,y) g(x, y) = 0 $$ is exactly $F cup G$.
In your case, you've got $g(x, y) = x - y$, and the solutions for $x-y = 0$ form a line in the plane; that's the set $G$ in the theorem. You've multiplied it by some complicated mess that I'll temporarily call $f(x, y)$, and looked for solutions to
$$
tag1
f(x, y) cdot g(x, y) = 0
$$
(perhaps using Desmos or some other graphing tool), and you're wondering why the solution set of this doesn't include all of $G$.
The answer is "because $f$ is not defined on all of $Bbb R^2$ --- for certain $(x,y)$ pairs, $f(x, y)$ is undefined, and those pairs cannot be part of the solution to equation (1)."
For instance, let's look at the point $(a, b) = (-1, -1)$. Clearly this point satisfies $g(a, b) = a - b = (-1) - (-1) = 0$. But what is $f(a, b)$? Well, your formula for $f$ is
$$
f(x, y) = left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)5right)^2+left(fracy4right)^2-1right)left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)3.4right)^2+left(fracy2.72right)^2-1right)
$$
and plugging in $-1$ for each of $x$ and $y$ gives, deep in the middle, this:
$$
ldots left(fracleft((-1)sqrtfracleft-(-1)-5+5right)5right)^2 ldots
$$
and the middle square root in that simplifies to
beginalign
&(-1)sqrtfracleft-(-1)-5\
&= -sqrtfracleft1-5\
&= -sqrtfrac-4\
&= -sqrtfrac4-4\
&= -sqrt-1
endalign
which is undefined. So because $f(a, b)$ is undefined, so is $f(a, b) cdot g(a, b)$, and hence this product cannot be zero...so the point $(a, b) = (-1, -1)$ is not part of the plot of the solutions to equation (1).
The modified theorem that gets to what's going on here is this:
Theorem: Suppose $D, E subset Bbb R^2$, $f:D to Bbb R$, $g:E to Bbb R$, $G$ is the solution set of the equation $g(x, y) = 0$, and $F$ is the solution
set of the equation $f(x, y) = 0$. Then the solution set of the
equation $$ f(x,y) g(x, y) = 0 $$ is exactly $(Fcap E) cup (G cap D)$.
which says that only those solutions of $g = 0$ (i.e., $G$) that lie in the domain of $f$ (i.e., $D$) get included in the result, and only solutions of $f = 0$ that lie in the domain of $E$ get included in the result.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thank you! I understand. But don't they do the same thing in viral batman logo equation? With all the complex number mess and things ? How is it fine there then?
$endgroup$
– user68153
Mar 26 at 15:23
$begingroup$
You might want to look at copper.hat's answer to this question (math.stackexchange.com/questions/54506/…) about the Batman equation. As an alternative, you can consider that your equation (and/or the batman equation) is defined by a product of functions $f,g: Bbb C^2 to Bbb R$ (with some slight problems where denominators are zero), and the graph you're hoping to get is the intersection of the solutions of $fg = 0$ (in $Bbb C^2$) with the real plane $Bbb R^2 subset Bbb C^2$. It's hardly surprising that Desmos, etc., cannot guess this. :)
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
Mar 26 at 17:42
$begingroup$
So even the batman equation doesn't work in decent plotters? Whoa! All the excitement!
$endgroup$
– user68153
Mar 27 at 2:32
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Notice that if $f(x) = left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)5right)^2+left(fracy4right)^2-1right)left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)3.4right)^2+left(fracy2.72right)^2-1right)$
then $f(x)$ is not defined for $x=-5$ because then $sqrt frac -5-x-5$ is dividing by $0$. And if $x > -5$ then $-x-5 < 0$ so $sqrt frac -5-x-5$ is the square root of a negative number.
So $f(x)$ simply doesn't work and does not exist if $x ge -5$.
And if $f(x)$ does not exist for $x ge -5$ then $f(x)cdot (x-y)$ can't exist for $x ge -5$ either.
It doesn't matter that multiplying by $f(x)(x-y) = 0$ and $0$ exists always. If $f(x)$ doesn't exist then neither does $f(x)times something else$. So we have $f(x)(x-y)= 0$ AND $x < -5$. We can't magic things into existence just because they "cancel out".
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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2 Answers
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2 Answers
2
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votes
$begingroup$
You're completely right about "the other equations" being the source of the problem.
Let me start with something simple. What is the value of
$$
x cdot 0 ?
$$
It's very tempting to say, "It's $0$, of course, because anything times zero is zero!" But what if $x$ is, for instance, a cheese omelet? Then...well...then multiplication by zero isn't even defined, and you'd have to say "$x cdot 0$ is undefined" rather than "it's zero." You might say that "cheese omelet" isn't really math, but what if we replace $x$ like this:
$$
(1/0) cdot 0
$$
Then our first factor is undefined, and multiplication by undefined things is undefined, so once again the product is "undefined" rather than zero.
Now let's look at a more complicated example. I'm going to stick with the real numbers -- no complex numbers allowed! -- and I want to look at
$$
sqrtx cdot 0
$$
You might say "Well, that's definitely zero!", but what if $x = -3$? Then the square root is undefined, and so the product is undefined as well.
Here's a theorem that your question hints at:
Theorem: Suppose $f, g : Bbb R^2 to Bbb R$, and $G$ is the solution set of the equation $g(x, y) = 0$, and $F$ is the solution
set of the equation $f(x, y) = 0$. Then the solution set of the
equation $$ f(x,y) g(x, y) = 0 $$ is exactly $F cup G$.
In your case, you've got $g(x, y) = x - y$, and the solutions for $x-y = 0$ form a line in the plane; that's the set $G$ in the theorem. You've multiplied it by some complicated mess that I'll temporarily call $f(x, y)$, and looked for solutions to
$$
tag1
f(x, y) cdot g(x, y) = 0
$$
(perhaps using Desmos or some other graphing tool), and you're wondering why the solution set of this doesn't include all of $G$.
The answer is "because $f$ is not defined on all of $Bbb R^2$ --- for certain $(x,y)$ pairs, $f(x, y)$ is undefined, and those pairs cannot be part of the solution to equation (1)."
For instance, let's look at the point $(a, b) = (-1, -1)$. Clearly this point satisfies $g(a, b) = a - b = (-1) - (-1) = 0$. But what is $f(a, b)$? Well, your formula for $f$ is
$$
f(x, y) = left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)5right)^2+left(fracy4right)^2-1right)left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)3.4right)^2+left(fracy2.72right)^2-1right)
$$
and plugging in $-1$ for each of $x$ and $y$ gives, deep in the middle, this:
$$
ldots left(fracleft((-1)sqrtfracleft-(-1)-5+5right)5right)^2 ldots
$$
and the middle square root in that simplifies to
beginalign
&(-1)sqrtfracleft-(-1)-5\
&= -sqrtfracleft1-5\
&= -sqrtfrac-4\
&= -sqrtfrac4-4\
&= -sqrt-1
endalign
which is undefined. So because $f(a, b)$ is undefined, so is $f(a, b) cdot g(a, b)$, and hence this product cannot be zero...so the point $(a, b) = (-1, -1)$ is not part of the plot of the solutions to equation (1).
The modified theorem that gets to what's going on here is this:
Theorem: Suppose $D, E subset Bbb R^2$, $f:D to Bbb R$, $g:E to Bbb R$, $G$ is the solution set of the equation $g(x, y) = 0$, and $F$ is the solution
set of the equation $f(x, y) = 0$. Then the solution set of the
equation $$ f(x,y) g(x, y) = 0 $$ is exactly $(Fcap E) cup (G cap D)$.
which says that only those solutions of $g = 0$ (i.e., $G$) that lie in the domain of $f$ (i.e., $D$) get included in the result, and only solutions of $f = 0$ that lie in the domain of $E$ get included in the result.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thank you! I understand. But don't they do the same thing in viral batman logo equation? With all the complex number mess and things ? How is it fine there then?
$endgroup$
– user68153
Mar 26 at 15:23
$begingroup$
You might want to look at copper.hat's answer to this question (math.stackexchange.com/questions/54506/…) about the Batman equation. As an alternative, you can consider that your equation (and/or the batman equation) is defined by a product of functions $f,g: Bbb C^2 to Bbb R$ (with some slight problems where denominators are zero), and the graph you're hoping to get is the intersection of the solutions of $fg = 0$ (in $Bbb C^2$) with the real plane $Bbb R^2 subset Bbb C^2$. It's hardly surprising that Desmos, etc., cannot guess this. :)
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
Mar 26 at 17:42
$begingroup$
So even the batman equation doesn't work in decent plotters? Whoa! All the excitement!
$endgroup$
– user68153
Mar 27 at 2:32
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You're completely right about "the other equations" being the source of the problem.
Let me start with something simple. What is the value of
$$
x cdot 0 ?
$$
It's very tempting to say, "It's $0$, of course, because anything times zero is zero!" But what if $x$ is, for instance, a cheese omelet? Then...well...then multiplication by zero isn't even defined, and you'd have to say "$x cdot 0$ is undefined" rather than "it's zero." You might say that "cheese omelet" isn't really math, but what if we replace $x$ like this:
$$
(1/0) cdot 0
$$
Then our first factor is undefined, and multiplication by undefined things is undefined, so once again the product is "undefined" rather than zero.
Now let's look at a more complicated example. I'm going to stick with the real numbers -- no complex numbers allowed! -- and I want to look at
$$
sqrtx cdot 0
$$
You might say "Well, that's definitely zero!", but what if $x = -3$? Then the square root is undefined, and so the product is undefined as well.
Here's a theorem that your question hints at:
Theorem: Suppose $f, g : Bbb R^2 to Bbb R$, and $G$ is the solution set of the equation $g(x, y) = 0$, and $F$ is the solution
set of the equation $f(x, y) = 0$. Then the solution set of the
equation $$ f(x,y) g(x, y) = 0 $$ is exactly $F cup G$.
In your case, you've got $g(x, y) = x - y$, and the solutions for $x-y = 0$ form a line in the plane; that's the set $G$ in the theorem. You've multiplied it by some complicated mess that I'll temporarily call $f(x, y)$, and looked for solutions to
$$
tag1
f(x, y) cdot g(x, y) = 0
$$
(perhaps using Desmos or some other graphing tool), and you're wondering why the solution set of this doesn't include all of $G$.
The answer is "because $f$ is not defined on all of $Bbb R^2$ --- for certain $(x,y)$ pairs, $f(x, y)$ is undefined, and those pairs cannot be part of the solution to equation (1)."
For instance, let's look at the point $(a, b) = (-1, -1)$. Clearly this point satisfies $g(a, b) = a - b = (-1) - (-1) = 0$. But what is $f(a, b)$? Well, your formula for $f$ is
$$
f(x, y) = left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)5right)^2+left(fracy4right)^2-1right)left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)3.4right)^2+left(fracy2.72right)^2-1right)
$$
and plugging in $-1$ for each of $x$ and $y$ gives, deep in the middle, this:
$$
ldots left(fracleft((-1)sqrtfracleft-(-1)-5+5right)5right)^2 ldots
$$
and the middle square root in that simplifies to
beginalign
&(-1)sqrtfracleft-(-1)-5\
&= -sqrtfracleft1-5\
&= -sqrtfrac-4\
&= -sqrtfrac4-4\
&= -sqrt-1
endalign
which is undefined. So because $f(a, b)$ is undefined, so is $f(a, b) cdot g(a, b)$, and hence this product cannot be zero...so the point $(a, b) = (-1, -1)$ is not part of the plot of the solutions to equation (1).
The modified theorem that gets to what's going on here is this:
Theorem: Suppose $D, E subset Bbb R^2$, $f:D to Bbb R$, $g:E to Bbb R$, $G$ is the solution set of the equation $g(x, y) = 0$, and $F$ is the solution
set of the equation $f(x, y) = 0$. Then the solution set of the
equation $$ f(x,y) g(x, y) = 0 $$ is exactly $(Fcap E) cup (G cap D)$.
which says that only those solutions of $g = 0$ (i.e., $G$) that lie in the domain of $f$ (i.e., $D$) get included in the result, and only solutions of $f = 0$ that lie in the domain of $E$ get included in the result.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thank you! I understand. But don't they do the same thing in viral batman logo equation? With all the complex number mess and things ? How is it fine there then?
$endgroup$
– user68153
Mar 26 at 15:23
$begingroup$
You might want to look at copper.hat's answer to this question (math.stackexchange.com/questions/54506/…) about the Batman equation. As an alternative, you can consider that your equation (and/or the batman equation) is defined by a product of functions $f,g: Bbb C^2 to Bbb R$ (with some slight problems where denominators are zero), and the graph you're hoping to get is the intersection of the solutions of $fg = 0$ (in $Bbb C^2$) with the real plane $Bbb R^2 subset Bbb C^2$. It's hardly surprising that Desmos, etc., cannot guess this. :)
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
Mar 26 at 17:42
$begingroup$
So even the batman equation doesn't work in decent plotters? Whoa! All the excitement!
$endgroup$
– user68153
Mar 27 at 2:32
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You're completely right about "the other equations" being the source of the problem.
Let me start with something simple. What is the value of
$$
x cdot 0 ?
$$
It's very tempting to say, "It's $0$, of course, because anything times zero is zero!" But what if $x$ is, for instance, a cheese omelet? Then...well...then multiplication by zero isn't even defined, and you'd have to say "$x cdot 0$ is undefined" rather than "it's zero." You might say that "cheese omelet" isn't really math, but what if we replace $x$ like this:
$$
(1/0) cdot 0
$$
Then our first factor is undefined, and multiplication by undefined things is undefined, so once again the product is "undefined" rather than zero.
Now let's look at a more complicated example. I'm going to stick with the real numbers -- no complex numbers allowed! -- and I want to look at
$$
sqrtx cdot 0
$$
You might say "Well, that's definitely zero!", but what if $x = -3$? Then the square root is undefined, and so the product is undefined as well.
Here's a theorem that your question hints at:
Theorem: Suppose $f, g : Bbb R^2 to Bbb R$, and $G$ is the solution set of the equation $g(x, y) = 0$, and $F$ is the solution
set of the equation $f(x, y) = 0$. Then the solution set of the
equation $$ f(x,y) g(x, y) = 0 $$ is exactly $F cup G$.
In your case, you've got $g(x, y) = x - y$, and the solutions for $x-y = 0$ form a line in the plane; that's the set $G$ in the theorem. You've multiplied it by some complicated mess that I'll temporarily call $f(x, y)$, and looked for solutions to
$$
tag1
f(x, y) cdot g(x, y) = 0
$$
(perhaps using Desmos or some other graphing tool), and you're wondering why the solution set of this doesn't include all of $G$.
The answer is "because $f$ is not defined on all of $Bbb R^2$ --- for certain $(x,y)$ pairs, $f(x, y)$ is undefined, and those pairs cannot be part of the solution to equation (1)."
For instance, let's look at the point $(a, b) = (-1, -1)$. Clearly this point satisfies $g(a, b) = a - b = (-1) - (-1) = 0$. But what is $f(a, b)$? Well, your formula for $f$ is
$$
f(x, y) = left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)5right)^2+left(fracy4right)^2-1right)left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)3.4right)^2+left(fracy2.72right)^2-1right)
$$
and plugging in $-1$ for each of $x$ and $y$ gives, deep in the middle, this:
$$
ldots left(fracleft((-1)sqrtfracleft-(-1)-5+5right)5right)^2 ldots
$$
and the middle square root in that simplifies to
beginalign
&(-1)sqrtfracleft-(-1)-5\
&= -sqrtfracleft1-5\
&= -sqrtfrac-4\
&= -sqrtfrac4-4\
&= -sqrt-1
endalign
which is undefined. So because $f(a, b)$ is undefined, so is $f(a, b) cdot g(a, b)$, and hence this product cannot be zero...so the point $(a, b) = (-1, -1)$ is not part of the plot of the solutions to equation (1).
The modified theorem that gets to what's going on here is this:
Theorem: Suppose $D, E subset Bbb R^2$, $f:D to Bbb R$, $g:E to Bbb R$, $G$ is the solution set of the equation $g(x, y) = 0$, and $F$ is the solution
set of the equation $f(x, y) = 0$. Then the solution set of the
equation $$ f(x,y) g(x, y) = 0 $$ is exactly $(Fcap E) cup (G cap D)$.
which says that only those solutions of $g = 0$ (i.e., $G$) that lie in the domain of $f$ (i.e., $D$) get included in the result, and only solutions of $f = 0$ that lie in the domain of $E$ get included in the result.
$endgroup$
You're completely right about "the other equations" being the source of the problem.
Let me start with something simple. What is the value of
$$
x cdot 0 ?
$$
It's very tempting to say, "It's $0$, of course, because anything times zero is zero!" But what if $x$ is, for instance, a cheese omelet? Then...well...then multiplication by zero isn't even defined, and you'd have to say "$x cdot 0$ is undefined" rather than "it's zero." You might say that "cheese omelet" isn't really math, but what if we replace $x$ like this:
$$
(1/0) cdot 0
$$
Then our first factor is undefined, and multiplication by undefined things is undefined, so once again the product is "undefined" rather than zero.
Now let's look at a more complicated example. I'm going to stick with the real numbers -- no complex numbers allowed! -- and I want to look at
$$
sqrtx cdot 0
$$
You might say "Well, that's definitely zero!", but what if $x = -3$? Then the square root is undefined, and so the product is undefined as well.
Here's a theorem that your question hints at:
Theorem: Suppose $f, g : Bbb R^2 to Bbb R$, and $G$ is the solution set of the equation $g(x, y) = 0$, and $F$ is the solution
set of the equation $f(x, y) = 0$. Then the solution set of the
equation $$ f(x,y) g(x, y) = 0 $$ is exactly $F cup G$.
In your case, you've got $g(x, y) = x - y$, and the solutions for $x-y = 0$ form a line in the plane; that's the set $G$ in the theorem. You've multiplied it by some complicated mess that I'll temporarily call $f(x, y)$, and looked for solutions to
$$
tag1
f(x, y) cdot g(x, y) = 0
$$
(perhaps using Desmos or some other graphing tool), and you're wondering why the solution set of this doesn't include all of $G$.
The answer is "because $f$ is not defined on all of $Bbb R^2$ --- for certain $(x,y)$ pairs, $f(x, y)$ is undefined, and those pairs cannot be part of the solution to equation (1)."
For instance, let's look at the point $(a, b) = (-1, -1)$. Clearly this point satisfies $g(a, b) = a - b = (-1) - (-1) = 0$. But what is $f(a, b)$? Well, your formula for $f$ is
$$
f(x, y) = left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)5right)^2+left(fracy4right)^2-1right)left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)3.4right)^2+left(fracy2.72right)^2-1right)
$$
and plugging in $-1$ for each of $x$ and $y$ gives, deep in the middle, this:
$$
ldots left(fracleft((-1)sqrtfracleft-(-1)-5+5right)5right)^2 ldots
$$
and the middle square root in that simplifies to
beginalign
&(-1)sqrtfracleft-(-1)-5\
&= -sqrtfracleft1-5\
&= -sqrtfrac-4\
&= -sqrtfrac4-4\
&= -sqrt-1
endalign
which is undefined. So because $f(a, b)$ is undefined, so is $f(a, b) cdot g(a, b)$, and hence this product cannot be zero...so the point $(a, b) = (-1, -1)$ is not part of the plot of the solutions to equation (1).
The modified theorem that gets to what's going on here is this:
Theorem: Suppose $D, E subset Bbb R^2$, $f:D to Bbb R$, $g:E to Bbb R$, $G$ is the solution set of the equation $g(x, y) = 0$, and $F$ is the solution
set of the equation $f(x, y) = 0$. Then the solution set of the
equation $$ f(x,y) g(x, y) = 0 $$ is exactly $(Fcap E) cup (G cap D)$.
which says that only those solutions of $g = 0$ (i.e., $G$) that lie in the domain of $f$ (i.e., $D$) get included in the result, and only solutions of $f = 0$ that lie in the domain of $E$ get included in the result.
edited Mar 26 at 22:16
answered Mar 26 at 14:43
John HughesJohn Hughes
65.5k24293
65.5k24293
$begingroup$
Thank you! I understand. But don't they do the same thing in viral batman logo equation? With all the complex number mess and things ? How is it fine there then?
$endgroup$
– user68153
Mar 26 at 15:23
$begingroup$
You might want to look at copper.hat's answer to this question (math.stackexchange.com/questions/54506/…) about the Batman equation. As an alternative, you can consider that your equation (and/or the batman equation) is defined by a product of functions $f,g: Bbb C^2 to Bbb R$ (with some slight problems where denominators are zero), and the graph you're hoping to get is the intersection of the solutions of $fg = 0$ (in $Bbb C^2$) with the real plane $Bbb R^2 subset Bbb C^2$. It's hardly surprising that Desmos, etc., cannot guess this. :)
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
Mar 26 at 17:42
$begingroup$
So even the batman equation doesn't work in decent plotters? Whoa! All the excitement!
$endgroup$
– user68153
Mar 27 at 2:32
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Thank you! I understand. But don't they do the same thing in viral batman logo equation? With all the complex number mess and things ? How is it fine there then?
$endgroup$
– user68153
Mar 26 at 15:23
$begingroup$
You might want to look at copper.hat's answer to this question (math.stackexchange.com/questions/54506/…) about the Batman equation. As an alternative, you can consider that your equation (and/or the batman equation) is defined by a product of functions $f,g: Bbb C^2 to Bbb R$ (with some slight problems where denominators are zero), and the graph you're hoping to get is the intersection of the solutions of $fg = 0$ (in $Bbb C^2$) with the real plane $Bbb R^2 subset Bbb C^2$. It's hardly surprising that Desmos, etc., cannot guess this. :)
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
Mar 26 at 17:42
$begingroup$
So even the batman equation doesn't work in decent plotters? Whoa! All the excitement!
$endgroup$
– user68153
Mar 27 at 2:32
$begingroup$
Thank you! I understand. But don't they do the same thing in viral batman logo equation? With all the complex number mess and things ? How is it fine there then?
$endgroup$
– user68153
Mar 26 at 15:23
$begingroup$
Thank you! I understand. But don't they do the same thing in viral batman logo equation? With all the complex number mess and things ? How is it fine there then?
$endgroup$
– user68153
Mar 26 at 15:23
$begingroup$
You might want to look at copper.hat's answer to this question (math.stackexchange.com/questions/54506/…) about the Batman equation. As an alternative, you can consider that your equation (and/or the batman equation) is defined by a product of functions $f,g: Bbb C^2 to Bbb R$ (with some slight problems where denominators are zero), and the graph you're hoping to get is the intersection of the solutions of $fg = 0$ (in $Bbb C^2$) with the real plane $Bbb R^2 subset Bbb C^2$. It's hardly surprising that Desmos, etc., cannot guess this. :)
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
Mar 26 at 17:42
$begingroup$
You might want to look at copper.hat's answer to this question (math.stackexchange.com/questions/54506/…) about the Batman equation. As an alternative, you can consider that your equation (and/or the batman equation) is defined by a product of functions $f,g: Bbb C^2 to Bbb R$ (with some slight problems where denominators are zero), and the graph you're hoping to get is the intersection of the solutions of $fg = 0$ (in $Bbb C^2$) with the real plane $Bbb R^2 subset Bbb C^2$. It's hardly surprising that Desmos, etc., cannot guess this. :)
$endgroup$
– John Hughes
Mar 26 at 17:42
$begingroup$
So even the batman equation doesn't work in decent plotters? Whoa! All the excitement!
$endgroup$
– user68153
Mar 27 at 2:32
$begingroup$
So even the batman equation doesn't work in decent plotters? Whoa! All the excitement!
$endgroup$
– user68153
Mar 27 at 2:32
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Notice that if $f(x) = left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)5right)^2+left(fracy4right)^2-1right)left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)3.4right)^2+left(fracy2.72right)^2-1right)$
then $f(x)$ is not defined for $x=-5$ because then $sqrt frac -5-x-5$ is dividing by $0$. And if $x > -5$ then $-x-5 < 0$ so $sqrt frac -5-x-5$ is the square root of a negative number.
So $f(x)$ simply doesn't work and does not exist if $x ge -5$.
And if $f(x)$ does not exist for $x ge -5$ then $f(x)cdot (x-y)$ can't exist for $x ge -5$ either.
It doesn't matter that multiplying by $f(x)(x-y) = 0$ and $0$ exists always. If $f(x)$ doesn't exist then neither does $f(x)times something else$. So we have $f(x)(x-y)= 0$ AND $x < -5$. We can't magic things into existence just because they "cancel out".
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Notice that if $f(x) = left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)5right)^2+left(fracy4right)^2-1right)left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)3.4right)^2+left(fracy2.72right)^2-1right)$
then $f(x)$ is not defined for $x=-5$ because then $sqrt frac -5-x-5$ is dividing by $0$. And if $x > -5$ then $-x-5 < 0$ so $sqrt frac -5-x-5$ is the square root of a negative number.
So $f(x)$ simply doesn't work and does not exist if $x ge -5$.
And if $f(x)$ does not exist for $x ge -5$ then $f(x)cdot (x-y)$ can't exist for $x ge -5$ either.
It doesn't matter that multiplying by $f(x)(x-y) = 0$ and $0$ exists always. If $f(x)$ doesn't exist then neither does $f(x)times something else$. So we have $f(x)(x-y)= 0$ AND $x < -5$. We can't magic things into existence just because they "cancel out".
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Notice that if $f(x) = left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)5right)^2+left(fracy4right)^2-1right)left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)3.4right)^2+left(fracy2.72right)^2-1right)$
then $f(x)$ is not defined for $x=-5$ because then $sqrt frac -5-x-5$ is dividing by $0$. And if $x > -5$ then $-x-5 < 0$ so $sqrt frac -5-x-5$ is the square root of a negative number.
So $f(x)$ simply doesn't work and does not exist if $x ge -5$.
And if $f(x)$ does not exist for $x ge -5$ then $f(x)cdot (x-y)$ can't exist for $x ge -5$ either.
It doesn't matter that multiplying by $f(x)(x-y) = 0$ and $0$ exists always. If $f(x)$ doesn't exist then neither does $f(x)times something else$. So we have $f(x)(x-y)= 0$ AND $x < -5$. We can't magic things into existence just because they "cancel out".
$endgroup$
Notice that if $f(x) = left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)5right)^2+left(fracy4right)^2-1right)left(left(fracleft(xsqrtfracleft-x-5+5right)3.4right)^2+left(fracy2.72right)^2-1right)$
then $f(x)$ is not defined for $x=-5$ because then $sqrt frac -5-x-5$ is dividing by $0$. And if $x > -5$ then $-x-5 < 0$ so $sqrt frac -5-x-5$ is the square root of a negative number.
So $f(x)$ simply doesn't work and does not exist if $x ge -5$.
And if $f(x)$ does not exist for $x ge -5$ then $f(x)cdot (x-y)$ can't exist for $x ge -5$ either.
It doesn't matter that multiplying by $f(x)(x-y) = 0$ and $0$ exists always. If $f(x)$ doesn't exist then neither does $f(x)times something else$. So we have $f(x)(x-y)= 0$ AND $x < -5$. We can't magic things into existence just because they "cancel out".
answered Mar 26 at 22:41
fleabloodfleablood
1
1
add a comment |
add a comment |
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