Problem from Dixon&Mortimer textbook: (allegedly) sufficient conditions for a transporter between two finite subsets to be non-emptySufficient conditions for ultracharactericitySpecify finite group satisfying two conditionsSufficient conditions for $Gcong Ntimes G/N$$AGL(V) = V rtimes GL(V)$ with $GL(V)$ acting from the rightSufficient Conditions for the Commutator Subgroup to be a ComponentSufficient Conditions for $(R,+,.)$ to be a commutative ringNecessary and Sufficient Conditions for Subgroup InclusionsSome conditions on a finite non-abelian $2$-groupSufficient conditions for a group homomorphism/isomorphismSufficient conditions on the isomorphism of two groups
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Problem from Dixon&Mortimer textbook: (allegedly) sufficient conditions for a transporter between two finite subsets to be non-empty
Sufficient conditions for ultracharactericitySpecify finite group satisfying two conditionsSufficient conditions for $Gcong Ntimes G/N$$AGL(V) = V rtimes GL(V)$ with $GL(V)$ acting from the rightSufficient Conditions for the Commutator Subgroup to be a ComponentSufficient Conditions for $(R,+,.)$ to be a commutative ringNecessary and Sufficient Conditions for Subgroup InclusionsSome conditions on a finite non-abelian $2$-groupSufficient conditions for a group homomorphism/isomorphismSufficient conditions on the isomorphism of two groups
$begingroup$
I should perhaps begin by apologizing for asking a not very profound question, but there is something that bothers me about exercise 1.5.19 from Permutation groups by Dixon&Mortimer. May I restate the hypothesis in a language closer to my personal preference. For any action of a group $G$ on a set $A$ and any subset $Xsubseteq A$ define its fixator as $$mathrmFix_G X=bigcap_x in X mathrmStab_G x$$
when $X neq emptyset$ and set in particular $mathrmFix_G emptyset=G$.
Assume now the following for a given transitive action of $G$ on $A$:
$B, C subseteq A$ are finite such that $|B| leqslant |C|$
$mathrmFix_G B$ and $mathrmFix_G C$ act transitively
on the complementary subsets $A setminus B$ respectively $Asetminus C$.
Then the exercise would have it that there exists an operator $lambda in G$ such that $lambda B subseteq C$. The exercise also asks whether the alleged result remains valid for infinite subsets $B$ and $C$.
Although I can't come up right away with a counterexample, these hypotheses of mere transitivity seem too weak to afford the nonemptiness of the transporter of $B$ to $C$. Expressing the conditions of the problem in terms of a certain point stabilizer and intersections of some of its conjugates (which is what the fixators would amount to) also doesn't seem too useful. There will exist of course only finitely many injections from $B$ to $C$, however why should one of them act like one of the operators of $G$ on $B$?
I can't completely deny the possibility of there being some trickery of maneuvering $B$ into $C$, but at any rate I can't see how. If anyone could enlighten me, I would be grateful.
group-theory
$endgroup$
|
show 8 more comments
$begingroup$
I should perhaps begin by apologizing for asking a not very profound question, but there is something that bothers me about exercise 1.5.19 from Permutation groups by Dixon&Mortimer. May I restate the hypothesis in a language closer to my personal preference. For any action of a group $G$ on a set $A$ and any subset $Xsubseteq A$ define its fixator as $$mathrmFix_G X=bigcap_x in X mathrmStab_G x$$
when $X neq emptyset$ and set in particular $mathrmFix_G emptyset=G$.
Assume now the following for a given transitive action of $G$ on $A$:
$B, C subseteq A$ are finite such that $|B| leqslant |C|$
$mathrmFix_G B$ and $mathrmFix_G C$ act transitively
on the complementary subsets $A setminus B$ respectively $Asetminus C$.
Then the exercise would have it that there exists an operator $lambda in G$ such that $lambda B subseteq C$. The exercise also asks whether the alleged result remains valid for infinite subsets $B$ and $C$.
Although I can't come up right away with a counterexample, these hypotheses of mere transitivity seem too weak to afford the nonemptiness of the transporter of $B$ to $C$. Expressing the conditions of the problem in terms of a certain point stabilizer and intersections of some of its conjugates (which is what the fixators would amount to) also doesn't seem too useful. There will exist of course only finitely many injections from $B$ to $C$, however why should one of them act like one of the operators of $G$ on $B$?
I can't completely deny the possibility of there being some trickery of maneuvering $B$ into $C$, but at any rate I can't see how. If anyone could enlighten me, I would be grateful.
group-theory
$endgroup$
1
$begingroup$
Move as much as you can of $B$ into $C$, and suppose there is still some $b$ in $B$ that you have not managed to move into $C$. Use an element in the fixator of $C$ to move $b$ out of $B$ and then use an element in the fixator of $B$ to move $b$ from its current positiuon outside of $B$ into $C$.
$endgroup$
– Derek Holt
Mar 12 at 9:57
$begingroup$
Thank you kindly for your reply! There is just one detail that needs to be ascertained in order to carry out the argument as you suggested it, namely that $Bcup C neq A$. I am not entirely sure whether the conditions of the problem would preclude this instance.
$endgroup$
– ΑΘΩ
Mar 12 at 11:48
$begingroup$
Yes you are right that is a problem - I will think some more.
$endgroup$
– Derek Holt
Mar 12 at 12:06
$begingroup$
Another observation right off the bat is that apart from the ''singular instance'' which requires separate treatment, the hypothesis of finiteness on $C$ was unnecessary. It may play a role in preventing the ''singular'' instance.
$endgroup$
– ΑΘΩ
Mar 12 at 12:08
$begingroup$
But the result is false when $B$ is allowed to be infinite. You can have silly counterexamples like $C=A$ and $B = A setminus a$.
$endgroup$
– Derek Holt
Mar 12 at 12:49
|
show 8 more comments
$begingroup$
I should perhaps begin by apologizing for asking a not very profound question, but there is something that bothers me about exercise 1.5.19 from Permutation groups by Dixon&Mortimer. May I restate the hypothesis in a language closer to my personal preference. For any action of a group $G$ on a set $A$ and any subset $Xsubseteq A$ define its fixator as $$mathrmFix_G X=bigcap_x in X mathrmStab_G x$$
when $X neq emptyset$ and set in particular $mathrmFix_G emptyset=G$.
Assume now the following for a given transitive action of $G$ on $A$:
$B, C subseteq A$ are finite such that $|B| leqslant |C|$
$mathrmFix_G B$ and $mathrmFix_G C$ act transitively
on the complementary subsets $A setminus B$ respectively $Asetminus C$.
Then the exercise would have it that there exists an operator $lambda in G$ such that $lambda B subseteq C$. The exercise also asks whether the alleged result remains valid for infinite subsets $B$ and $C$.
Although I can't come up right away with a counterexample, these hypotheses of mere transitivity seem too weak to afford the nonemptiness of the transporter of $B$ to $C$. Expressing the conditions of the problem in terms of a certain point stabilizer and intersections of some of its conjugates (which is what the fixators would amount to) also doesn't seem too useful. There will exist of course only finitely many injections from $B$ to $C$, however why should one of them act like one of the operators of $G$ on $B$?
I can't completely deny the possibility of there being some trickery of maneuvering $B$ into $C$, but at any rate I can't see how. If anyone could enlighten me, I would be grateful.
group-theory
$endgroup$
I should perhaps begin by apologizing for asking a not very profound question, but there is something that bothers me about exercise 1.5.19 from Permutation groups by Dixon&Mortimer. May I restate the hypothesis in a language closer to my personal preference. For any action of a group $G$ on a set $A$ and any subset $Xsubseteq A$ define its fixator as $$mathrmFix_G X=bigcap_x in X mathrmStab_G x$$
when $X neq emptyset$ and set in particular $mathrmFix_G emptyset=G$.
Assume now the following for a given transitive action of $G$ on $A$:
$B, C subseteq A$ are finite such that $|B| leqslant |C|$
$mathrmFix_G B$ and $mathrmFix_G C$ act transitively
on the complementary subsets $A setminus B$ respectively $Asetminus C$.
Then the exercise would have it that there exists an operator $lambda in G$ such that $lambda B subseteq C$. The exercise also asks whether the alleged result remains valid for infinite subsets $B$ and $C$.
Although I can't come up right away with a counterexample, these hypotheses of mere transitivity seem too weak to afford the nonemptiness of the transporter of $B$ to $C$. Expressing the conditions of the problem in terms of a certain point stabilizer and intersections of some of its conjugates (which is what the fixators would amount to) also doesn't seem too useful. There will exist of course only finitely many injections from $B$ to $C$, however why should one of them act like one of the operators of $G$ on $B$?
I can't completely deny the possibility of there being some trickery of maneuvering $B$ into $C$, but at any rate I can't see how. If anyone could enlighten me, I would be grateful.
group-theory
group-theory
asked Mar 12 at 9:49
ΑΘΩΑΘΩ
3015
3015
1
$begingroup$
Move as much as you can of $B$ into $C$, and suppose there is still some $b$ in $B$ that you have not managed to move into $C$. Use an element in the fixator of $C$ to move $b$ out of $B$ and then use an element in the fixator of $B$ to move $b$ from its current positiuon outside of $B$ into $C$.
$endgroup$
– Derek Holt
Mar 12 at 9:57
$begingroup$
Thank you kindly for your reply! There is just one detail that needs to be ascertained in order to carry out the argument as you suggested it, namely that $Bcup C neq A$. I am not entirely sure whether the conditions of the problem would preclude this instance.
$endgroup$
– ΑΘΩ
Mar 12 at 11:48
$begingroup$
Yes you are right that is a problem - I will think some more.
$endgroup$
– Derek Holt
Mar 12 at 12:06
$begingroup$
Another observation right off the bat is that apart from the ''singular instance'' which requires separate treatment, the hypothesis of finiteness on $C$ was unnecessary. It may play a role in preventing the ''singular'' instance.
$endgroup$
– ΑΘΩ
Mar 12 at 12:08
$begingroup$
But the result is false when $B$ is allowed to be infinite. You can have silly counterexamples like $C=A$ and $B = A setminus a$.
$endgroup$
– Derek Holt
Mar 12 at 12:49
|
show 8 more comments
1
$begingroup$
Move as much as you can of $B$ into $C$, and suppose there is still some $b$ in $B$ that you have not managed to move into $C$. Use an element in the fixator of $C$ to move $b$ out of $B$ and then use an element in the fixator of $B$ to move $b$ from its current positiuon outside of $B$ into $C$.
$endgroup$
– Derek Holt
Mar 12 at 9:57
$begingroup$
Thank you kindly for your reply! There is just one detail that needs to be ascertained in order to carry out the argument as you suggested it, namely that $Bcup C neq A$. I am not entirely sure whether the conditions of the problem would preclude this instance.
$endgroup$
– ΑΘΩ
Mar 12 at 11:48
$begingroup$
Yes you are right that is a problem - I will think some more.
$endgroup$
– Derek Holt
Mar 12 at 12:06
$begingroup$
Another observation right off the bat is that apart from the ''singular instance'' which requires separate treatment, the hypothesis of finiteness on $C$ was unnecessary. It may play a role in preventing the ''singular'' instance.
$endgroup$
– ΑΘΩ
Mar 12 at 12:08
$begingroup$
But the result is false when $B$ is allowed to be infinite. You can have silly counterexamples like $C=A$ and $B = A setminus a$.
$endgroup$
– Derek Holt
Mar 12 at 12:49
1
1
$begingroup$
Move as much as you can of $B$ into $C$, and suppose there is still some $b$ in $B$ that you have not managed to move into $C$. Use an element in the fixator of $C$ to move $b$ out of $B$ and then use an element in the fixator of $B$ to move $b$ from its current positiuon outside of $B$ into $C$.
$endgroup$
– Derek Holt
Mar 12 at 9:57
$begingroup$
Move as much as you can of $B$ into $C$, and suppose there is still some $b$ in $B$ that you have not managed to move into $C$. Use an element in the fixator of $C$ to move $b$ out of $B$ and then use an element in the fixator of $B$ to move $b$ from its current positiuon outside of $B$ into $C$.
$endgroup$
– Derek Holt
Mar 12 at 9:57
$begingroup$
Thank you kindly for your reply! There is just one detail that needs to be ascertained in order to carry out the argument as you suggested it, namely that $Bcup C neq A$. I am not entirely sure whether the conditions of the problem would preclude this instance.
$endgroup$
– ΑΘΩ
Mar 12 at 11:48
$begingroup$
Thank you kindly for your reply! There is just one detail that needs to be ascertained in order to carry out the argument as you suggested it, namely that $Bcup C neq A$. I am not entirely sure whether the conditions of the problem would preclude this instance.
$endgroup$
– ΑΘΩ
Mar 12 at 11:48
$begingroup$
Yes you are right that is a problem - I will think some more.
$endgroup$
– Derek Holt
Mar 12 at 12:06
$begingroup$
Yes you are right that is a problem - I will think some more.
$endgroup$
– Derek Holt
Mar 12 at 12:06
$begingroup$
Another observation right off the bat is that apart from the ''singular instance'' which requires separate treatment, the hypothesis of finiteness on $C$ was unnecessary. It may play a role in preventing the ''singular'' instance.
$endgroup$
– ΑΘΩ
Mar 12 at 12:08
$begingroup$
Another observation right off the bat is that apart from the ''singular instance'' which requires separate treatment, the hypothesis of finiteness on $C$ was unnecessary. It may play a role in preventing the ''singular'' instance.
$endgroup$
– ΑΘΩ
Mar 12 at 12:08
$begingroup$
But the result is false when $B$ is allowed to be infinite. You can have silly counterexamples like $C=A$ and $B = A setminus a$.
$endgroup$
– Derek Holt
Mar 12 at 12:49
$begingroup$
But the result is false when $B$ is allowed to be infinite. You can have silly counterexamples like $C=A$ and $B = A setminus a$.
$endgroup$
– Derek Holt
Mar 12 at 12:49
|
show 8 more comments
1 Answer
1
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
I prefer to use Dixon&Mortimer's notation $G_(X)$ for what you call the fixator of $X$ in $G$. And like D&M, I very much prefer to use right actions, so I will use $B^g$ where you write $gB$.
Choose $g in G$ such that $|B^g cap C|$ is as large as possible, and then replace $B$ with $B^g$. If $B cap C = B$ then we are done so suppose not. So there exists $b in B setminus C$. Since $|C| ge |B|$ and $B,C$ are finite, there exists $c in C setminus B$.
If $A ne B cap C$, then there exists $a in A setminus (B cap C)$, and we can find $g in G_(C)$ with $b^g = a$ and $h in G_(B)$ with $a^h=c$, so $b^gh = c$, and since $(B cap C)^gh = B cap C$, we now have $(B cap C) cup c in B^gh cap C$, contrary to the maximality of $|B^g cap C|$.
It remains to deal with the case when $A = B cup C$, in which canse $A$ is the disjoint union of $B cap C$, $B setminus C$ and $C setminus B$ (so in particular $A$ is finite). By transitivity of $G$ on $A$ (which we haven't used yet), there exsists $g in G$ with $c^g = b$. Since $c notin B$, $g$ can map at most $|B setminus C| - 1$ elements of $B$ into $B setminus C = A setminus C$. So $g$ must map at least $|B| - |B setminus C| + 1 = |B cap C| + 1$ elements of $B$ into $C$. Hence $|B^g cap C| > |B cap C|$ again contradicting the maximality of $|B cap C|$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thank you again! Your noble perseverance has shone light on the matter once and for all. As a remark, it seems indeed that the hypothesis that $C$ be finite is indeed superfluous (the only necessary aspect being the cardinal inequality between the two).
$endgroup$
– ΑΘΩ
yesterday
add a comment |
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$begingroup$
I prefer to use Dixon&Mortimer's notation $G_(X)$ for what you call the fixator of $X$ in $G$. And like D&M, I very much prefer to use right actions, so I will use $B^g$ where you write $gB$.
Choose $g in G$ such that $|B^g cap C|$ is as large as possible, and then replace $B$ with $B^g$. If $B cap C = B$ then we are done so suppose not. So there exists $b in B setminus C$. Since $|C| ge |B|$ and $B,C$ are finite, there exists $c in C setminus B$.
If $A ne B cap C$, then there exists $a in A setminus (B cap C)$, and we can find $g in G_(C)$ with $b^g = a$ and $h in G_(B)$ with $a^h=c$, so $b^gh = c$, and since $(B cap C)^gh = B cap C$, we now have $(B cap C) cup c in B^gh cap C$, contrary to the maximality of $|B^g cap C|$.
It remains to deal with the case when $A = B cup C$, in which canse $A$ is the disjoint union of $B cap C$, $B setminus C$ and $C setminus B$ (so in particular $A$ is finite). By transitivity of $G$ on $A$ (which we haven't used yet), there exsists $g in G$ with $c^g = b$. Since $c notin B$, $g$ can map at most $|B setminus C| - 1$ elements of $B$ into $B setminus C = A setminus C$. So $g$ must map at least $|B| - |B setminus C| + 1 = |B cap C| + 1$ elements of $B$ into $C$. Hence $|B^g cap C| > |B cap C|$ again contradicting the maximality of $|B cap C|$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thank you again! Your noble perseverance has shone light on the matter once and for all. As a remark, it seems indeed that the hypothesis that $C$ be finite is indeed superfluous (the only necessary aspect being the cardinal inequality between the two).
$endgroup$
– ΑΘΩ
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I prefer to use Dixon&Mortimer's notation $G_(X)$ for what you call the fixator of $X$ in $G$. And like D&M, I very much prefer to use right actions, so I will use $B^g$ where you write $gB$.
Choose $g in G$ such that $|B^g cap C|$ is as large as possible, and then replace $B$ with $B^g$. If $B cap C = B$ then we are done so suppose not. So there exists $b in B setminus C$. Since $|C| ge |B|$ and $B,C$ are finite, there exists $c in C setminus B$.
If $A ne B cap C$, then there exists $a in A setminus (B cap C)$, and we can find $g in G_(C)$ with $b^g = a$ and $h in G_(B)$ with $a^h=c$, so $b^gh = c$, and since $(B cap C)^gh = B cap C$, we now have $(B cap C) cup c in B^gh cap C$, contrary to the maximality of $|B^g cap C|$.
It remains to deal with the case when $A = B cup C$, in which canse $A$ is the disjoint union of $B cap C$, $B setminus C$ and $C setminus B$ (so in particular $A$ is finite). By transitivity of $G$ on $A$ (which we haven't used yet), there exsists $g in G$ with $c^g = b$. Since $c notin B$, $g$ can map at most $|B setminus C| - 1$ elements of $B$ into $B setminus C = A setminus C$. So $g$ must map at least $|B| - |B setminus C| + 1 = |B cap C| + 1$ elements of $B$ into $C$. Hence $|B^g cap C| > |B cap C|$ again contradicting the maximality of $|B cap C|$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thank you again! Your noble perseverance has shone light on the matter once and for all. As a remark, it seems indeed that the hypothesis that $C$ be finite is indeed superfluous (the only necessary aspect being the cardinal inequality between the two).
$endgroup$
– ΑΘΩ
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
I prefer to use Dixon&Mortimer's notation $G_(X)$ for what you call the fixator of $X$ in $G$. And like D&M, I very much prefer to use right actions, so I will use $B^g$ where you write $gB$.
Choose $g in G$ such that $|B^g cap C|$ is as large as possible, and then replace $B$ with $B^g$. If $B cap C = B$ then we are done so suppose not. So there exists $b in B setminus C$. Since $|C| ge |B|$ and $B,C$ are finite, there exists $c in C setminus B$.
If $A ne B cap C$, then there exists $a in A setminus (B cap C)$, and we can find $g in G_(C)$ with $b^g = a$ and $h in G_(B)$ with $a^h=c$, so $b^gh = c$, and since $(B cap C)^gh = B cap C$, we now have $(B cap C) cup c in B^gh cap C$, contrary to the maximality of $|B^g cap C|$.
It remains to deal with the case when $A = B cup C$, in which canse $A$ is the disjoint union of $B cap C$, $B setminus C$ and $C setminus B$ (so in particular $A$ is finite). By transitivity of $G$ on $A$ (which we haven't used yet), there exsists $g in G$ with $c^g = b$. Since $c notin B$, $g$ can map at most $|B setminus C| - 1$ elements of $B$ into $B setminus C = A setminus C$. So $g$ must map at least $|B| - |B setminus C| + 1 = |B cap C| + 1$ elements of $B$ into $C$. Hence $|B^g cap C| > |B cap C|$ again contradicting the maximality of $|B cap C|$.
$endgroup$
I prefer to use Dixon&Mortimer's notation $G_(X)$ for what you call the fixator of $X$ in $G$. And like D&M, I very much prefer to use right actions, so I will use $B^g$ where you write $gB$.
Choose $g in G$ such that $|B^g cap C|$ is as large as possible, and then replace $B$ with $B^g$. If $B cap C = B$ then we are done so suppose not. So there exists $b in B setminus C$. Since $|C| ge |B|$ and $B,C$ are finite, there exists $c in C setminus B$.
If $A ne B cap C$, then there exists $a in A setminus (B cap C)$, and we can find $g in G_(C)$ with $b^g = a$ and $h in G_(B)$ with $a^h=c$, so $b^gh = c$, and since $(B cap C)^gh = B cap C$, we now have $(B cap C) cup c in B^gh cap C$, contrary to the maximality of $|B^g cap C|$.
It remains to deal with the case when $A = B cup C$, in which canse $A$ is the disjoint union of $B cap C$, $B setminus C$ and $C setminus B$ (so in particular $A$ is finite). By transitivity of $G$ on $A$ (which we haven't used yet), there exsists $g in G$ with $c^g = b$. Since $c notin B$, $g$ can map at most $|B setminus C| - 1$ elements of $B$ into $B setminus C = A setminus C$. So $g$ must map at least $|B| - |B setminus C| + 1 = |B cap C| + 1$ elements of $B$ into $C$. Hence $|B^g cap C| > |B cap C|$ again contradicting the maximality of $|B cap C|$.
answered 2 days ago
Derek HoltDerek Holt
54.2k53573
54.2k53573
$begingroup$
Thank you again! Your noble perseverance has shone light on the matter once and for all. As a remark, it seems indeed that the hypothesis that $C$ be finite is indeed superfluous (the only necessary aspect being the cardinal inequality between the two).
$endgroup$
– ΑΘΩ
yesterday
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Thank you again! Your noble perseverance has shone light on the matter once and for all. As a remark, it seems indeed that the hypothesis that $C$ be finite is indeed superfluous (the only necessary aspect being the cardinal inequality between the two).
$endgroup$
– ΑΘΩ
yesterday
$begingroup$
Thank you again! Your noble perseverance has shone light on the matter once and for all. As a remark, it seems indeed that the hypothesis that $C$ be finite is indeed superfluous (the only necessary aspect being the cardinal inequality between the two).
$endgroup$
– ΑΘΩ
yesterday
$begingroup$
Thank you again! Your noble perseverance has shone light on the matter once and for all. As a remark, it seems indeed that the hypothesis that $C$ be finite is indeed superfluous (the only necessary aspect being the cardinal inequality between the two).
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– ΑΘΩ
yesterday
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1
$begingroup$
Move as much as you can of $B$ into $C$, and suppose there is still some $b$ in $B$ that you have not managed to move into $C$. Use an element in the fixator of $C$ to move $b$ out of $B$ and then use an element in the fixator of $B$ to move $b$ from its current positiuon outside of $B$ into $C$.
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– Derek Holt
Mar 12 at 9:57
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Thank you kindly for your reply! There is just one detail that needs to be ascertained in order to carry out the argument as you suggested it, namely that $Bcup C neq A$. I am not entirely sure whether the conditions of the problem would preclude this instance.
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– ΑΘΩ
Mar 12 at 11:48
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Yes you are right that is a problem - I will think some more.
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– Derek Holt
Mar 12 at 12:06
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Another observation right off the bat is that apart from the ''singular instance'' which requires separate treatment, the hypothesis of finiteness on $C$ was unnecessary. It may play a role in preventing the ''singular'' instance.
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– ΑΘΩ
Mar 12 at 12:08
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But the result is false when $B$ is allowed to be infinite. You can have silly counterexamples like $C=A$ and $B = A setminus a$.
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– Derek Holt
Mar 12 at 12:49